Rewild Your Business, Ep. 3, Positioning, TRANSCRIPT
Gill Moakes: Hi, I'm Gill Moakes. I'm a business coach and mentor and the host of the Heads Together podcast. I help ambitious freedom seeking entrepreneurs step into who they really are and create wildly profitable businesses doing what they love. Rewild Your Business on the Stone Fruit Roll Up is a six part documentary.
It's a reality TV series for business, if you like, where I'll be taking my business bestie, Rebecca Gunter, the founder. Of stone fruit on a journey to define success on her terms. Hi
Rebecca Gunter: everybody. I'm Rebecca Gunter Peach in chief at Stoned Fruit. I'm a brand strategist, developer, and copywriter.
Gill Moakes: I want her to start regenerating time and energy for herself, and we're gonna do that by rewilding her business.
By cutting away what doesn't belong, to allow what does to thrive. The biggest challenge
Rebecca Gunter: in my business right now is how freaking over complicated it is. No one knows what to buy from me. And I need someone to help me clear, clear the forest and help me re, replant the seeds that actually have a functionality and a purpose.
Gill Moakes: So over the next six weeks, we'll be deconstructing the idea that there's only one right way to do business. And my goal is that by the end of the series, Rebecca will be crystal clear and completely confident owning her own unique ecosystem.
Hey everyone, I am Gill Moakes. I hope you're all well. Welcome back to the third installment of Rewilding Stonefruit. So quick recap, if you haven't watched all of them, um, in episode one, Rebecca and I, um, Really kind of fleshed out her vision for stone fruit because her business was, it was feeling really complicated and whenever that happens, it's really great to just go back to what was the vision for the business I wanted to create in the first place.
So that's what we focused on in the first episode in week two, we started talking about goals. So this was last week we started talking about goals and actually we're going to pick up there today in a moment. But we started talking about financial goals. We started talking about reputational goals and lifestyle goals.
For Rebecca, because once you have your vision in place, you need to understand what goals you need to be working towards that are going to bring that vision to life. So where we left last week was Rebecca had. She had a good idea of her financial goals. That wasn't a problem for her. Working on her financial goals was pretty easy and her lifestyle goals came pretty easy to her too, where she was really struggling a bit was with her reputational goals.
What does she want to be really known for? You know, what was important to her in that arena? So in a moment, we're going to pick up there and wrap, like close that loop before we move into the subject for this week's episode, which is positioning. Now, I feel like if ever I was going to have imposter syndrome, it is right now, right here, because Rebecca has taught me everything I know about positioning.
I had no clue what positioning was when I first met Rebecca, and I certainly had no clue what it can do. For you as a business owner, I was about to say for your business, but it starts before that because Rebecca urges us to position ourselves first, then our business. And then even our offers and then even our marketing strategies.
So, for example, if I just take my business for a moment, I, when I started working with Rebecca in, in the beginning, she positioned me, me as an entrepreneur. And then we positioned, we've positioned more than one business. I've owned more than one business since I've known Rebecca, we positioned all of those businesses.
And then we have absolutely positioned my private coaching offers. We've positioned any, um, I had a membership program. We could position that we position everything, even my own podcast heads together that is positioned so. I'm saying positioning a lot, which I haven't been letting Rebecca do in the previous episodes.
Go back and check now, because it's quite funny, because I have to like buzz her when she's saying it. Because we were talking about how it could be that that phrase isn't necessarily resonating, because, like me, people don't always understand what it is and the importance of it. So that's what we're going to dive into today.
We are going to position, we may position a Rebecca and stone fruit today, but certainly we're going to be looking at stone fruit and positioning that the business. So let's see how that unfolds in real time. That's the beauty of a live show, right? But first I want to. Welcome Rebecca onto her own show.
So she can fill us in on what's been going on since last week. Hi.
Rebecca Gunter: Hi, Gilly. Welcome to Stoned Fruit. Oh my God. It is such an honor to be here. I never thought I'd be on the roll up stage.
Gill Moakes: Love it. Be careful or I might start trotting out some of my American accents. Like I was just now.
Rebecca Gunter: All I'm trying to do right now is bait you into. Doing your American accent. So you've, you've let me hang for the last year.
Gill Moakes: It's just so insulting to the rest of America that, you know, you tolerate me doing it, but it's, it would be just way too insulting.
Oh, it will probably happen. You'll trick me into it. I, if I, if
Rebecca Gunter: we're lucky, I'll trick you into it. It's not insulting to me. I think it's endearing. And as long as you've endured my, my terrible British impression back to you and your show, so
Gill Moakes: back to you, actually, because last week, um, We kind of covered off some bits of goal setting, but there were some bits that you, by your own admission, kind of went into a little bit of denial on and skipped over rather conveniently, um, and you know I'm not going to let you get away with that.
You know that. So I
Rebecca Gunter: was uh newfound who this I can't hear you. I can't hear you. You're breaking up
Gill Moakes: Yeah, actually this is as a side note, you know This is what happens when you do develop a very close relationship Um with with the business bestians why rebecca and I are always telling everyone that you need this person in your life Because we don't let each other get away with things. We know when each other are pulling a bit of um wool over the eyes and um Yeah, we don't in a loving way, we make sure that we're always held to account.
So I'm so hoping that you have now been doing work on this gorgeous planner. Love it. Let's put a link to that.
Rebecca Gunter: Exactly right. Exactly right. I have been doing my homework. I'm reporting in that. I have absolutely been doing my homework. The purple Sharpie.
It's hot. It's hot. That's how much it's been working. It's hot.
Gill Moakes: Right. Enough stalling. Come on. Homework. Okay. What would you like?
Rebecca Gunter: Where would you like me to start? Where would you like me to start? I'm ready.
Gill Moakes: I want you to share with everyone. What was a challenge for you last week? Because there was a bit you skipped.
And I'm, I'm intrigued to know, I'd love you to share what that was and whether you've managed to go back and backfill that now.
Rebecca Gunter: What I miss is the business model. That's what I missed. And it wasn't by design, but I also, It was a Freudian slip, which is when you say one thing, but mean your mother. So I slipped on that business model.
I've done a lot of thinking about it as well. And you know, it's not, it's not comfortable or fluffy or shiny to admit to the YouTube or LinkedIn audience that one, I think that. Because the trajectory of my life that has thrown me kind of in these, I don't know, I guess I would say relationships or, or, you know, kind of systems, you know, as a woman, as a mother, et cetera, and which I'm constantly in reactive mode and personally.
And also, you know, I'm making, I'm making some growth. I'm doing some growing, you guys, I'm doing the work, but also in my business where it's reactive. If you looked at me and said, um, how do you like your business? There's so much to love about it. I absolutely adore my clients. I remember when, you know, clients, some clients, there'd always be at least one or two, one or two problem client experiences, and I'd get together with my business bestie, you know, and I'd be like drinking the drinks and talking the talk about what was difficult about a client relationship.
And over time I've been able to eliminate. You know, any misalignments between me and a client and like the work is chess kiss. It goes along so very well, but I'm still reactive. I get a lead. I react to it. I set up a call. I react to it. I do the discovery meeting. I react to it. I put for the proposal. I react to it.
I get the job or I don't get the job and then I do the work. That's all reactive. Like the, it happens to me, the world outside is happening to me. And I think part of that, like limiting belief or kind of limiting mindset is around having a codependent relationship with my business in which I'm obsessed with what it's doing.
But I'm over my own needs, over my own needs. And I think some of that, again, spills over from my being a wife, being a mother, being a woman in America, doing this, doing that, and which you, um, it's very easily, it's a very easy to slip into a modality in which you're in reactive mode, you have some codependency issues that you're walking through.
And also the biggest struggle for me and Gilly was to actually declare goals. There's just was something around that where I was like, I don't get goals. I just work hard. I don't have goals other than to finally get out of survival mode. That's my only goal is to get out of survival mode. And so to declare goals was difficult because I keep looking around like why?
Why? I don't goals aren't what I do. I just. Just work in response and reaction to clients. So, um, the, those were my struggles with it. Audience at home, you're doing the work, doing the work and going on this solo retreat and crawling through the glass. I think looking what you're avoiding or what's the, what seems like a totally foreign concept will reveal a lot about your relationship with yourself, with what you deserve and with.
What, and with your business, but I did, I did still get there and wrote some things down. And look, girl, I wrote a business. I'd answer the business model question.
Gill Moakes: I am so proud of you. I mean, I think what you've just said is going to resonate with so many other people. You are not the only person that struggles to set goals.
And part of that in my experience, particularly if, and this is a very common goal, I want to get out of survival mode. That's my only goal. That's all I want is to survive, thrive, forget that I just want to survive. And the problem with that as a goal is that people with, who have that as their goal are also very used to not hitting goals, they're not, they used to not setting goals and they're used to not hitting goals, so guess what?
If your goal is just to survive. And you have no intention of even hitting that goal, guess what's going to happen? Nothing's going to change. Nothing's going to change. You're on the struggle bus. So, I think it's really common and I'm so grateful to you for sharing that so openly because you are just One of so many people who have that mindset that there's no point in me setting a stretching or what feels like unrealistic goal because right now, all I want to do is survive, but there's a definite mindset shift that needs to take place there because guess what the byproduct, the simple no brain byproduct of aiming higher and genuinely taking the steps you need to take to hit a higher goal.
The by product of that is survival. By product of that is not just surviving. It's going to take it up and above that level.
Rebecca Gunter: So from your lips, from your lips to God's ears, Gilly,
Gill Moakes: always God listens to me every day.
So come on, share with us what that thought process process led you to. So healthy thought process. What did it mean? Okay. I,
Rebecca Gunter: and again, I wouldn't even be surprised if I completely still skirted the assignment and wrote kind of this. You know, big picture thing that doesn't actually answer the question, which is my signature move, which is avoidance.
I think, which is why I'm starting to think like you're kind of codependent with your business right now, like you're avoidance and you're obsessed with what the business does above your own needs. But here's what I have. And I hope this answers the assignments. I really need my gold star.
Gill Moakes: I know you do.
Rebecca Gunter: Stone fruit is a coaching slash consulting business that provides one of a kind clients with one of a kind business advice, tactical direction, and personality driven copy. And then I have 5 ways we make money or offers. A retainer arrangement. Solve business problems month to month until you are living the brand.
A one off. Determine deliverables and chunk them off until everyone is satisfied. Business in the raw at home edition, which is a 12 week coaching program. Build a brand from the ground up in three months or less. A welcome sequence. Which is just like one of my jams baby and the email welcome sequence and a LinkedIn makeover And I have pricing for all of that.
I don't know if that completes the assignment, but I'm Then I'm getting closer.
Gill Moakes: So two things It's not the goals, it's not the reputational goals that I want to, but it is, it is filling in the business model part of that vision statement that we did at the beginning. Yeah, that's where I was back
Rebecca Gunter: to.
Sorry, Gilly.
Gill Moakes: Right. So that it totally fills that in. And when we come to our next episode is you have just. Read out for me. Such a beautiful starting place for that episode. I'm so happy because that is the first time I've heard you really give me a list of the offers that you want to sell. And I believe you want to sell those offers.
I really believe that those are the ones. Every single thing you read out there. I was like, uh, yes. Oh my god. Yes Definitely. I mean you're good. I have to make sure you haven't just hoodwinked me with some clever words Because obviously that is what you're very good at. Thanks Pay you to be good at
Rebecca Gunter: I did write them and I wrote pricing and everything.
I did write these down and there are Like, you know, I could put together a website copy offer very easily that should probably be on there because it's a pretty, it's pretty cut and dry how I,
Gill Moakes: that's what we're going to go into in week four, we're going to really dive into. Those offers, the pricing, whether there's some offer gaps, what the value ladder is of those offers, what's, what's the journey it takes someone who is an ideal client for you on, where do they enter at, where do they go up to, you know, what are the aspirational offers, what are the no brainer offers, what's the bread and butter offer.
Um, so I'm excited now to do that because I think you've now. In that part of your vision, you've really doubled down on that and got that clear. When you did that, did it give you any more clarity around that, the reputational part of your goals? Do you remember last time I was saying to you, or you were saying actually, that one of the goals was to write a book?
Rebecca Gunter: I had my reputation piece filled out. Have you done it? Oh, okay.
Gill Moakes: I've absolutely done. I will stop talking. Fantastic. Okay. All right. Because that way we close our loops on the vision and the goals. Okay.
Rebecca Gunter: I've published a business book. I've written a memoir. I've gained a notable audience on some stack. I have a signature presentation that I give.
Like a talk, a signature talk. Paint a picture. What does being a thought leader mean to you? Is that something that you aspire to? Describe in detail how you want to be perceived by others. What do you want your clients to say about you? I want my clients to say, This is a Rebecca thing. Whenever no one in the room can think of a way to do it differently.
She is a champion for owning your own means of production, and she keeps me energized. They all say, every single one of them, currently, not my vision or my goals, but right now, I hear every day, I always feel so energized after I talk to you, or I always feel so motivated after I talk to you. That's the thing that I want them to say about me.
So I hope I got that assignment. Because I want two gold stars today. I'm not going to be
Gill Moakes: happy. That is your second gold star. Yes. That is two gold stars because those are right now. Think about what the purpose of setting a goal is that you work back from it. Every single one of those goals that you mentioned.
So the, I mean, the tangible goals, the book, the business book, the memoir, the sub stack, the signature talk. Every single one of those goals can go into a calendar. It can have the micro tasks put to it. What's the first micro task for having, building a, a, a really big engaged audience on Substack? Create a Substack account.
Do this, do that. Start, you know, create a content calendar. Et cetera, et cetera. And this is, this is goals in action. This is taking a goal and then working back from it. You want a signature talk. Okay. What's the first step for that? What do you need to do first? Is it to schedule a whole afternoon in your calendar where you're going to brainstorm the topic and the angle?
Or is it to buy Chris Anderson's book called Ted Talks, the official Ted guide to public speaking? I'd recommend. Um, You know, so straight away, once you've got those goals in place, and this is the same with your financial goals, same with your reputational goals. If you have a financial goal that you want 300, 000 in your bank account by the end of the year, what does that mean in terms of quarterly income?
What does it mean in terms of monthly income? How many clients represent that sum of money? How many of your signature offer do you need to sell to hit those numbers? What are the monthly fluctuations you might expect? So straight away, you can start projecting numbers against that goal and monitor progress towards that goal.
And same with your lifestyle goals. If you've got a lifestyle goal, which is, I want to take the whole month of August off every single year, you've
Rebecca Gunter: done it. Oh my God. I did do it, I did this, I did the money one, and I did the reputational
Gill Moakes: one. Yeah. And, and this is the thing, isn't it? It's like once you are clear on what they're, you can set those micro goals in place to, to hit them to know what they are.
And I just wanna say to you about the whole, I just wanna survive goal. Can you see now, now that you've done this exercise, if you don't have any of that stuff in your head as a goal, can you see how you're, you have no chance of even taking the first beginning's tiny action towards it, because nothing will change.
Rebecca Gunter: Yes, here's what I've learned from my wonderful client, Jennifer Thornton, three or four coaching. I love to quote her. Yeah, that in human development, you go through, you know, kind of this, this, you know, advancement, shall we say, and there are, you know, stages that are more. I don't want to put this in a linear perspective, but there are, you know, kind of stages of development.
The reactive state is where about 70 percent of us stay, and that is that things are happening to me. So that reactive state of being in survival mode, um, just kind of, I get a lead, I respond to it, I either close the deal, I don't, I do the work, and I move it on. That's reactive mode. Creative mode. And which only like 30, well, 20 percent of us actually doing the numbers.
20 percent of us live is where the world is happening, but I control my reaction to it. There's such an elevated state of being of attracting, um, you know, in my case, attracting business in which. I'm not just putting out fires all the time, but instead in this kind of elevated modality of creativity where, yeah, like, you know, America is a dumpster fire of late stage capitalism, but it's not devastating me because I don't have to react to it.
I can control my reaction. And so the goals, I think, in this framework are the first step of being in creative mode rather than in reactive mode. And I also want to comment that I think it's very interesting, and I didn't notice that until I read these up to you that I didn't put anything about being a digital media content creator at all, even though that's what I've been doing for the last year.
Isn't it interesting that the roll up is not on here?
Gill Moakes: That's really interesting. I have a theory about that, though.
Rebecca Gunter: Is it because it really goes under marketing question mark, although this is
Gill Moakes: right, I think I have a theory as to why you haven't included it because you enjoy it and it doesn't feel like work because to you work or certainly the business development, you love the work you do with your clients.
That's a given. I know that you love that, but the work around business development. Generally speaking is not your favorite thing to do or hasn't been your favorite thing to do. So you associate that whole piece with the bit that you don't particularly like or haven't particularly liked and have been struggling to get to because when you're in that survival mode, you struggle to get to it.
Whereas the digital media stuff you are so good at. It comes so naturally to you and I think you actually enjoy doing it. So it almost is a given to you. I wonder if that's why you haven't included it.
Rebecca Gunter: That's so interesting. It's so interesting. I do think of it as work, but you know what I think of the work is like, order the episode art, schedule it in StreamYard, write the description.
All the stuff you've been doing. That feels like the work part. But like, even today, when we were getting ready for this thing, and I was like, Hey, do you have the banners queued up? Do you, did you, you know, share it on LinkedIn enough? Do you have this going? Do you have that? And it came to the point where it's like 10 minutes before the show where there isn't any more of that, like work to do.
And I just had to bring, I was like, now we just have to do the show, which so many other people find to be the hard part. And I'm like, Oh, now I have to do is just do the show, man.
Gill Moakes: The show's best bit is the easy bit.
Rebecca Gunter: Yeah, the work is like the admin stuff.
Gill Moakes: Yeah, yeah. So I would love to see goals around that, really.
You know, goals around the level of support you want in the business. I think is going to be an important goal for you. Oh
Rebecca Gunter: my god, you're so exactly right. Because that's really where I see the team building happening. Is around this digital content. Yeah. Yeah. I've got my, I've got my strategy fingers on.
Gill Moakes: Okay. I'm excited to get to that. However, we can't even begin to think about strategy until we have done something very, uh, very important.
Rebecca Gunter: Oh my God. Oh my
Gill Moakes: God. I know it's time. We're doing it. Okay. We are people at home moving into positioning.
Rebecca Gunter: Dun, dun, dun. My favorite topic.
Gill Moakes: Yeah, positioning. Rebecca's am my favorite topic.
And like I said to you at the, at the beginning of this episode, this is where I have the imposter syndrome because like, you know, Rebecca taught me everything about positioning. So I was thinking, you know, how do I want to do this? Do I want to just kind of hand over to take the easy way out and hand over to Rebecca now and just say, just Rebecca, tell us what your positioning is.
And I thought, you know what? No, that is not what I want to do because that would be very easy for me and not so as easy for Rebecca because what we have learned is that positioning is something that is pretty damn tough to do on your own. This is something where there's a lot of work that it's essential to do on your own, I believe.
But actually positioning is something that is hard to do on your own. Rebecca has worked with me to position everything I've ever done in my business. And I've worked with her on positioning for different things in her business before, because you just need that two way.
So I was going to get Rebecca as well to tell you what positioning is. I'm not going to do that either. I'm going to tell you what positioning is. And on this one, I want the gold star afterwards, because if I've got this right, it means that you have done a really good job of teaching me this topic. So positioning is.
A positioning statement is a single sentence that answers the following questions. Who do you serve? What do they need? Who are you? What do you deliver? And what makes you special, different, or the one? How did I do?
Rebecca Gunter: I feel like I'm watching you ride your bike for the first time. I've pushed you off! Who are your people?
What do they need? Who are you? What do you deliver? Why are you special, different, or the one? You nailed it, girl. Nailed it. You nailed it, girl! You
Gill Moakes: nailed it, girl! So, if we are going to position Stone Fruit, I would love it though, if you would just, because I, you are the best person to explain this to us, what makes positioning so important?
Rebecca Gunter: What a question. Positioning really is the articulation of who, what, why, when, where, and how, which are essentially the questions that you need to be able to answer to communicate with anybody. About your business, about what you, what you do and what you offer. So often we get, um, really mired in our resume of like, Oh, well, we've been making t shirts for 15 years.
While that's factually accurate, it's certainly not anything that gives me anything I can sink my teeth into. Anything that I can latch on to, something that I can believe in, something I can see myself and project myself in needing. And, you know, let's just face it, like, everybody and their brother has a business.
Everybody and their brother has, you know, either a branding business, a coaching business, a do do do, da da da. It's difficult to stand up and be instantly recognizable if you can't answer, Who are our people? What do they need? Who are we? What do we deliver? And why are we special, different, or the one? I still struggle with what do we deliver?
I mean, that's a really difficult question to be able to answer when, I don't know, when you're just so in it, I guess. But if you can answer those, there's nothing you can't do to communicate. Your website, who are my people? Articulate that. Who exactly are your people? What are they exactly like? Not just like, well, it's for anybody who has an iPhone.
Is it? Is it Sally? That's what we're doing now. You have to get extremely nuanced and deep about the answers to these questions. And when you do, you're instantly understandable. Hopefully, if you do the work in a way, the more you put into it, the more people have something they can believe into, they can latch onto.
So for me, positioning is the process and the key to really creating a unique Kind of like, you know, coordinate point on the business on the map of the business arena. It's just like kind of where you are uniquely in the world. I am for these kind of people who have these kind of problems. I bring this kind of thing to the table.
We deliver it this way. And therefore we are uniquely like no one else. And the reason we exist is this, if you can do that to me, that is a way that you can effectively create a brand for yourself that you can step into. Live, embody, brand is your reputation brought to life in words, actions, and images.
If you don't know your reputation, how on earth are you going to bring it to life? Absolutely.
Gill Moakes: I mean, you just articulated that so beautifully. Yes! Sharpie drop moment. Something that just came up for me when you were saying that was, um, and I tell this to clients all the time. So, well, two things that came up for me.
One is that, That, you know, people call it niching down, whatever you like to call it. When you get real clarity on really who you serve, I coach a lot of, um, other coaches and one of the things I urge my clients to do is to make a decision about who you get the best results for and focus in on those people, create the offers those people want.
Share them in the way that those people are going to best receive them so that for me, that's that starting point that comes when you've got clear positioning, isn't it? And the other thing I love because I'm quite visual. So when you did that, I was picturing, you know, like Tom Cruise in Minority Report when he's got that.
Like really sci fi kind of thing. And you've got this point on it and everything else is feeding into it. And that becomes the exact coordinate. I suddenly realized that that is just the perfect metaphor for something that I tell my clients all the time. And that is that if you are. Radically authentic and claim your own unique place coordinate in the market.
You have no competition.
Rebecca Gunter: You said that today and it's so simpatico with the way that I work, which is to come to, um, to the process positioning with being as, as mildly influenced by the outside as possible. So I'll, I'll have a new client, let's just say a new person and they're coming and I'm doing positioning.
I will not look at their website. I will not look at their LinkedIn. I will not, I will try and ignore their emails. Like, you know, that are marketing emails. I try and insulate myself as much as possible so that I can create those coordinates within a vacuum. And that way they are absolutely unique and authentic.
You cannot, I'm not influenced by the outside world. And I want to be like that.
Gill Moakes: Okay, what a great place for us to go into your positioning then, because I think that you've just made it so clear to people listening why positioning is so damned important. And this is my turn to blow smoke up your ass for a minute, because when you have over the years positioned things that I've done, it has changed the game for me every single time.
It's the thing. And. Because you've taught me so well, I can, to a certain extent, start the process on my own now. So as soon as I have an idea for something new, I can go straight to positioning as an entrepreneur, the positioning of my business, is this aligned with those two positionings for a start? You know, is it, is it really going to be something that my ideal clients want?
Or need preferably both, you know, what does it actually deliver? I automatically run through that positioning process in my head. So I just have to thank you for that because it is a complete game changer in business. And for anyone listening, if you are not selling as much of your thing as you want to be selling, you probably somewhere back have a positioning issue.
Because I believe that without positioning, no amount of marketing will work. And I'm happy to stick a standard stake in the ground on that. You can be the smartest, most clued up marketer. You can know how to construct the most complicated and sophisticated funnel. But if you don't have your positioning crystal clear, you're wasting your time.
Don't bother marketing your business. If you're not clear on your positioning, there's no point. And rammed that home.
Rebecca Gunter: I would also add to that and say that if you are, um, if you just realize that you've sat, you sound like everybody else, everybody else came out of, you know, Marie Forleo's B School and everyone sounds like that.
You just recognize that you, the only way you can really grow is to differentiate yourself, and to stop sounding like everybody else. And I know that's like, that's all the thing, that's what all the copywriters say, it's like stand up like a meerkat in a massive mediocre, which is my line, so I can make up for it, I can make fun of it, however, it truly is.
the way that people can create a relation, an emotional connection to you. If you sound like everybody else, it's very hard to create an emotional connection. And that's really where brand stickiness comes in is that you're giving them a reason to care and because you know Who they are and you know the problems that they're facing every day The reasons to care are just a matter of articulation throughout this process Avoiding, avoiding my own, avoiding my own by talking about how great they are.
Gill Moakes: Right. Hold on. Hold on, folks. I may just have to reach in through the camera and pin her down a minute because we are now going into positioning of your business.
Rebecca Gunter: Why am I nervous? Why am I nervous about it? Are you? Yeah, because it's hard and it's painful. It is hard and painful.
Gill Moakes: It is painful. It is. It is hard and it is painful. I'm gonna try not to cry. I know. I know. It is tough. Do you want to start with positioning of Rebecca Gunter or shall we go straight into positioning Stone Fruit?
That's the first question I
Rebecca Gunter: have for you. I think because the name of this episode is Positioning Stone Fruit that's where we should start.
Gill Moakes: Yeah. I think so, too. And yeah, you as yeah, absolutely. So I feel like it is stone fruit that we really want to. We are rewilding stone through awful, like you say. So, so let's think about thinking through that stone fruit lens.
Then who do you serve
Rebecca Gunter: entrepreneur types? And by that, I mean, their personality is one of great risk. And also great reward for more than just themselves. Um, I'm not, um, a great fit with the play it safe types. So if you, if you are the kind of person who's disruptive, maverick, um, swim upstream, uh, your way and the highway, um, a problem solver, uh, taking a unique position.
And that's not positioning but taking a unique position or having a unique soapbox or an unpopular opinion You are my people you've been in business generally at least three years You know, it's not generally my people aren't trying to reinvent themselves after a hundred years They're trying to pivot into who they really really are and it took them at least three years of kind of painful You know, negotiation with themselves to recognize that haven't had the courage yet to, you know, fully articulate and declare who they are.
So, um, that was, you know, problem children. Yeah.
Gill Moakes: Would you guys fast say that your ideal clients are pretty opinionated? And I don't, I don't see that as a, you know, I'm not saying that in a derogatory way. I don't think it is derogatory. I'm opinionated. You're opinionated.
Rebecca Gunter: If there's not, if they're not opinionated, what do I have to write about?
Right. Are they quite rebellious? More power, yeah, more power to you if you're not. I would say, um, try and tell one of my clients they can't do something and see what happens. The people who I'm really sympathetic with. In fact, I'm like a Co conspirator or co creation of them doing the, of them doing the thing everyone said they shouldn't or couldn't do.
Gill Moakes: Oh, hang on. That's really interesting. I want to pull on that thread a bit for a minute. So, a co conspirator for people who are used to hearing. That's unrealistic. It's not. No one does it that way. No one does it that way. That's not how it's done. That won't work. Why bother? That's not appropriate. Right?
The people who are used to hearing that, those are the people who need to work with you.
Rebecca Gunter: Agreed. 100%.
Gill Moakes: Yeah, I'm getting a really good image in my mind. I, I think most people, what, what's really interesting about you, I believe is that most people struggle with this part. They struggle with the behaviors and, and thoughts and feelings of their ideal clients. I think you have that nailed.
Rebecca Gunter: With your help to be
Gill Moakes: fair.
Mm-Hmm. The bit that I think you struggle with, which other people tend to find easier is the attributes. So this is not, maybe not the attributes is the wrong word, but the, the kind of factual stuff about them. What do they do for a living? Where are, you know, all our fact kind of stuff. And is that deliberate?
Is it because you don't care about any of that stuff?
Rebecca Gunter: I don't care about any of that stuff because my niche, when we say niche down, for me, I don't have a particular industry or kind of person specifically that I like to work with. I just need this kind of rebellious disruptor ness. To them, you can be an accountant and you can be a leadership coach.
You can be a 16 room, um, boutique hotel. You can be, um, uh, someone who makes jerk sauce and bottles it. You can be, I mean. Literally anything. And I'll have fun in that space and be able to give you a brand voice. That's like no other. And that's really the gift is a brand voice, but without talking about it, it's like, Oh, guys, our voice, the customer, I can give you that voice, but you have to be someone who is very, um, swim upstream me.
You've got to be, you've got to be used to being told. No,
Gill Moakes: I almost think it would be slightly, um, It'd almost be an oxymoron for you to say you do what you do and then to say, but, and I only work with female business coaches. Cause it would almost be like, Oh, but hang on. Surely then all female business coaches that work with you are going to check.
There's going to be a
Rebecca Gunter: kind of, I don't know. The thread there for me is not women business owners, but there is an alignment with me with disenfranchised populations. Because I have an axe to grind. I have an axe to grind about making people, or help making. I have an axe to grind about helping people who generally are dismissed get heard.
Like women, neurodivergent, multicultural, like, if you are not mainstream, whose ideas are just taken like, Oh, well you're a man, that's a great idea. Then I'm the kind of person who wants to really do whatever I can to help you get either equal footing or footing where the mainstream is irrelevant. So while I say, yeah, I don't niche myself like women only, but I am attracted to people who traditionally are not listened to.
Whether it's their ideas or just kind of their role in the hierarchy of society, where I kind of have a, we'll show them attitude. We'll show them stick with me, kid. We'll show them. Oh God,
Gill Moakes: I love that. Stick with me and we'll show them. I think that's that. Like, let's come back to that. Let's put a pin in that one because something you just said about people who, whose ideas are not necessarily automatically listened to.
This is a big one, isn't it? Because if you, if you're talking up here about OK, People with strong opinions, people who really want to have a voice to get out there and yet they have an extra hurdle that isn't just the fact that they're breaking new ground or doing something in a different way, but they have perhaps an extra layer.
Of complexity in getting their ideas out there. They're really in your sweet spot. Yeah, baby.
Rebecca Gunter: If no one's listening to you, come sit by me.
Gill Moakes: Ah! If no one's listening to you, come sit by me.
Rebecca Gunter: Right? Yeah.
Gill Moakes: You realize you're going to have to cut a couple of these things out for, um, when you, your homework of creating the actual positioning statement.
Rebecca Gunter: I know. Let's acknowledge the comments, shall we? Tony is here. He wants to know how we can neither go too broad, nor too narrow in the who are my people section.
Gill Moakes: That's a really good question. Do you want to take that one or shall I take it? We can
Rebecca Gunter: both offer our opinions. Again, Tony, I think that it's around looking for the golden threads that weave amongst the folks who really turn you on.
So earlier, Gilly was talking about Um, you know, kind of being, in my words, paraphrasing, kind of a jack of all trades and, and how positioning can narrow that down. There's an interesting situation that I'm, some reason I have a gift of is taking kind of these disparate, like open threads and finding a theme or a commonality around it.
I mean. I'm sure it's around my autistic pattern recognition, but that allows me to find ways in which they have in common that are, um, otherwise unseen. A perfect example is I've been working on positioning with a woman who has a number of programs, and some of these programs are for, um, corporate. High level leaders and some of these programs are for CEOs and founders and entrepreneurial types and that's two different pieces of language.
And so how does she, you know, speak to 1 without the other 1 thing while I start talking about me and vice versa. And that has been. The work of finding what kind of leaders are we making here, whether they're in an entrepreneurial space or a corporate space or, you know, leader of their church group or whatever.
So by focusing on the kind of leaders we're creating, it allows us to not Go too broad with like, well, anybody in a leadership position or too narrow and like entrepreneurs or what I affectionately call corporate defectors, people who are kind of like leaving that space and coming over. So in that way you can prevent being too broad or too, um, too narrow or too wide by finding commonality amongst.
I mean,
Gill Moakes: I, I, I suppose I agree with you to a point and yes, and I guess is my answer. So yes to that. And I think we need to be clear about why we encourage as. As a business coach, why I encourage people to niche down and it's for a couple of reasons. So the biggest reason is because to have a really outstanding business, you need to deliver outstanding results to your clients and to deliver outstanding results.
Quite often you need to be a specialist. In serving those people, because a generic offer won't get the same fantastic results as a nuanced, bespoke, designed perfectly for you offer. It's exactly the same reason why one to one services are more expensive than group services. Take coaching industry, one to one coaching is far more expensive than group coaching.
Um, generally speaking, and it's for that very reason that, you know, the offer in a one to one scenario can be very bespoke. So for me, niching down, that's one of the reasons is that it gives you the opportunity to create offers just for those people who are, that are. Exactly what they're looking for. The other reason, um, or another reason is that if you don't niche down, you make your marketing so hard, so hard.
How do you craft that? Are you inside my head kind of messaging? If it's just for anyone, the more niche you go. The easier it is to create messaging that has people thinking you're talking directly to them. So, but, but there is that balance to it because go too narrow and. You actually, you're doing yourself, your own business, your own growth, your own experience of, of your business, a disservice, it can actually become too commoditized almost because you've gone so narrow that you are actually your, your messaging is just as there's very little variation to it.
You're selling the exact same thing all the time because it's the exact same. Thing that that person wants, you know, so it's, it's totally a balance. Um, and I think we all know when we've got it right, because our messaging starts to really hit home and our sales increase. So just speaking from with a business coach hat on.
You will know if your niche is too wide because you won't get any engagement, you won't be getting on the phone with people, you won't be attracting the right people onto discovery calls with you, you know, those are all the symptoms of a business that isn't clear around who it serves. And that's why we do positioning.
Rebecca Gunter: I would just add that you can avoid that problem by positioning every single thing you do. Don't need an umbrella, but you can really make sure that you're not, you know, alienating anybody by positioning every little thing, but once you know how to do the formula, then you can apply it anyway.
Gill Moakes: Absolutely.
And also actually, just to Tony's point, there's another question that I get asked quite a lot is, and that is what if I want to serve two different niches? What if I want to serve two different kinds of clients?
Rebecca Gunter: That's that piece I was talking about earlier. Yeah, of riding two horses with one ass. How do you do it?
Gill Moakes: Yeah. How do you do it? And I think you just really nail nailed it there. It means that some of your content has to stay slightly more generic than you might want it to be in an ideal world. And that's, that's not a good use word to use because I don't ever want anyone putting out generic content. But I think you my point, you know, maybe it isn't.
Drilled down and nuanced all the time, but your offers can be, your offers can be the exact things that those people want. And this is where your version of niching down where it's much more about a mindset and an attitude that becomes your niche. Those people might do lots of different things. Like you said, maybe an accountant, it may be a business coach.
It may be a brand consultant, whatever it is. It's the offers. That can be nuanced to different things. And I love, I love marketing campaigns. So when we come onto that and we will, I'm sure we'll talk about that later, but different campaigns for different industries. Perfect. It doesn't mean that's the, those are the only person, these people you serve.
The important thing is that they have the same mindset. They think in a similar way, the point you made about your skill in finding that commonality, that's the important
Rebecca Gunter: part. I would also add that another way to be able to serve more than one niche at the same time is to really drill down on your core values and use your core values is the reason that people work with you and that way you can pivot into any arena you want.
You're not stuck and like, Oh, I only make t shirts. But if your core values are, you know, kind of quality apparel, that's You know, not made in a sweat lab and you've got, you know, messages of empowerment and you have, you know, sustainable materials or, or whatever that is. If you lean in your values, it can be t shirts, it can be sweatshirts, it can be towels, it can be, you know, banners, you can branch out of that.
I think that's a very powerful way for people to be able to pivot on a dime that instead of leaning in on your kind of 15 years of doing this, you're like, we stand for these things.
Gill Moakes: We stand for these things. That's such a great metaphor is the t shirts. Because also when you do that, you don't care who is buying them in terms of how old they are, what their gender is, where they live, all of those things, because those people are going to find you because of your values, because the content you put out, the market.
Activity that you do is gonna speak very loudly because you are being confident and you are completely expressing those values, and that will make you stand out.
Rebecca Gunter: I love it.
Gill Moakes: So the who I'm pretty clear on, and I know that, you know, before next week, you are gonna go away and, and incorporate that into the, the sentence.
So four. Enter your people. The next part of the sentence is, who need? So those people that you were talking about earlier, what do they need?
Rebecca Gunter: Words.
Gill Moakes: Who need words? Perfect. Move on. I mean, essentially, they
Rebecca Gunter: need the words. That are so right for them that they can internalize them and use them. So, yes, glibly, the words.
The words that are on your website, the words that are in your Eat Welcome sequence, the words that are in your LinkedIn profile, absolutely. That's essentially what it boils down to. What are those words? What are those words? What are they? That is a process of stepping into an identity that many of us have not had the opportunity or the courage to embrace.
And, um, so what they need is someone to hold up a mirror to them, show them who they truly are, tell them the words that describe this, and then empower them to embody what those words are, so that They can make all of their digital footprint match that brand. And you disagree. I still disagree. Okay, fair.
But,
Gill Moakes: I'm being a little bit facetious and unfair, and mean, because I don't disagree with any of that, but I don't think it's the right answer to the right question. It's the right answer to the wrong question, if that makes sense. You're
Rebecca Gunter: absolutely right! I just got fucking trapped by positioning. You're absolutely right.
Gill Moakes: Can you just see that this is why you can't do it on your own? You can do this effortlessly and expertly for other people. You can't do it for yourself. It's so hard to do it for
Rebecca Gunter: yourself. They don't need words. They need to be seen for who they are. They need to be seen for who they are and the words facilitate
Gill Moakes: that.
And they need to be heard. Remember, you want to be heard? Come sit by me. No one's listening. Come sit by me. They need other
Rebecca Gunter: people to see who they really are. Correct. And that also means they have to also see it. Which is easier said than done. Yeah. I really fell into that trap. I fell into it. They don't need words, isn't it easy to be seen and heard?
Yeah, yeah. Because we get stuck in what
Gill Moakes: we deliver. There was another way of doing it. You would find that if it wasn't words, maybe it might be. So I would love to give you a challenge of helping someone do that via the medium of mime because it isn't the words that they need. Wow. The words are what you deliver and they're part of your process.
Do you remember I said to you, the other thing that I think they need is they need. So if we start up here, they need to, to sell what they do. Come down from that. They need their marketing to work. Come down from that. They need to be seen and heard for who they truly are, because that's the only thing that will make your marketing work.
And that applies to all of us to anyone. If you're not being seen and heard for who you really are again, no amount of marketing is going to work. Hit stop immediately on your Facebook ads, your LinkedIn ads, your Google ads, your, um, fabulously sophisticated marketing funnels. If you haven't done this positioning work that Rebecca and I do right now for Stone Fruit, because your marketing won't work.
This is why positioning is so bloody important and why, you know, we have to, for Stone Fruit, find a way of packaging it so that people understand what they're buying when they buy positioning. Because it's that fundamental. And you're the bloody queen of doing it. You do it like no one else. I know,
Rebecca Gunter: because I can see them like no one else does.
You can
Gill Moakes: see them, yes!
Rebecca Gunter: Yeah, but you're so smart because, you know, you're right. They don't need to be seen and heard as much as they need to sell their stuff,
Gill Moakes: man. That's what they need. They need sales. And if they want sales, they need their marketing to work. You need to be seen and heard so that encompasses everything they need to understand who they really are positioning.
They need to start feeling confident enough to express it, living it. They need to, you know, that's what you deliver. That's what stone fruit delivers. Via coaching, by positioning, whatever medium, we're not worried about what the Stone Fruit offers are that meet this need yet. All we know is that this company, this business, Stone Fruit, has to meet this need for people to be seen and heard.
So their marketing works, so they sell their stuff.
Rebecca Gunter: So that they can own their own means of production, which is super important to me, and be a sovereign being, not dependent on a paycheck or a boss.
Gill Moakes: That's right, which is also important to you. Going back to own their own means of production. What do you mean when you say that?
For anyone who doesn't know what
Rebecca Gunter: you're talking about. I just, well, in capitalism, I
Gill Moakes: think, The non ranting
Rebecca Gunter: version. Yeah, well, I think that we, um, live under a false sense of security when we work for someone else and do not own the way that we get paid. So, you know, in, in like economics, we talk about it as like owning the means of production.
So to me, my highest priority is to own the way that I get paid. So currently people hire me to coach them and to write for them. I own that. No one else owns that. So it keeps me. In a sovereign state of being where I'm not dependent on whether or not my boss's boss's boss's boss can sell something that I provide, uh, for a meager exchange of, of, of money.
So being, to me, it's all about sovereignty. So,
Gill Moakes: so that sovereignty and owning your own means of production sits at the top of that pyramid that we just talked about. And to get, to get to there, they need the sales, to get the sales, they need their marketing to work, to get their marketing to work. They need to be seen and to be heard.
And that is their entry level to working with you. That's what Stone Fruit delivers. I believe, because Stone Fruit isn't a full marketing agency, it's not a sales consultancy, but it is a be seen and be heard business. And I think, you know, we've just established that that is the foundation of getting them to where they want to be.
So we know what they need. Stone Fruit exists to start them on their journey to get in there. Because if they work with Stone Fruit, Then they can get the marketing in place to amplify what they've put in place.
Rebecca Gunter: I see us as like we provide the food for your marketing mix. Like you already have. You have a marketing mix on your own and I can help you figure out what that is.
But we're the ingredients there in like we're not the marketing. We're not marketing itself. We're not marketing. We're the stuff you need to make marketing happen,
Gill Moakes: right? And to be honest with you, how many times have you heard me say, you know, marketing always works. Marketing always works. It's a matter of when.
So I don't really care which marketing strategy people want to go with if they've got this foundational stuff, right? I don't really mind if you like doing webinars, do webinars. If you love social media, immerse yourself in social media and that will work for you. If you like, um, if you hate being online and actually you love in person networking, do that because if you Done this foundational work, you can make your marketing work because it will amplify the stuff that is right.
If you haven't done this foundational work, your marketing will simply replicate the stuff that is wrong. And you'll have more of that. You are
Rebecca Gunter: so, you are so right. I think about my own clients. One of them thrives and long form. Thought leadership and articles like 15 to 2, 500 words every time one of them thrives with four, you know, at a clip, like a weekly email that's on either, you know, a subject they're passionate about or whatever.
One of them thrives when we position each of their niches and that's their little thing. One of them thrives by doing this other thing. So it doesn't matter what the marketing strategy is. Doesn't
Gill Moakes: matter. I mean, there are always going to be some things that are more successful for different offers, different products, different niches, and all of that kind of thing.
And so of course, you know, common sense says that you need to taper what you enjoy doing. You know, if you love a LinkedIn, but your clients, none of them are on LinkedIn, clearly that's not the right marketing strategy for you. You know, so there's a bit of common sense has got to come in here, but essentially.
The strategy you pick should be one that you enjoy executing, can do consistently and sustainably. Cause those are, those two things are so important, you know, like we said about the podcast, if I'd have given up when, um, after, you know, four months when I was still recording episodes for about 10 downloads, um, you know, I would never have got to where I am with it now.
So I, it's really important just, just to remember that the marketing strategy is not the most important thing. The foundations. Of the marketing strategy, which is the positioning is the most important thing, and some people will call that brand. I mean, you know, in my opinion, positioning is probably the most important part of brand strategy, but yeah, positioning reigns supreme.
Rebecca Gunter: I couldn't agree more, but it's convenient for me too. I love it.
Gill Moakes: That's handy. So now we know what they need. What's stone fruit in that sentence for opinionated, rebellious entrepreneurs. who need to own their own means of production, hit their goals financially, reputationally, and from a lifestyle perspective, who need the marketing to be able to do that, and therefore who need to be seen and heard, which is where Stone Fruit comes in.
Rebecca Gunter: Who's Stone Fruit? I mean, we really get stuck here, uh, which is the most straightforward part of a positioning statement. It is a coaching and consulting company,
Gill Moakes: essentially. Perfect. Perfect. Full stop. Move on. That's what it is. It's a coaching consulting company because I'm
Rebecca Gunter: so glad you're
Gill Moakes: happy. I'm so happy.
I'm so happy with that. Um, and I think it's, it's actually a coaching and consulting company plus because you do deliver assets, uh, which a lot of co
Rebecca Gunter: op, co op, copy shop, co op,
Gill Moakes: copy shop, I still feel like, you know, that's got legs. I still love the idea. I think it's 2. 0, but essentially it's, it's a coaching, consulting and copywriting business.
That's what stone fruit is.
Rebecca Gunter: I accept.
Gill Moakes: Would you agree with that? Would you agree with adding the copywriting in?
Rebecca Gunter: I would because otherwise What is it?
Gill Moakes: Well, you could decide you're not going to actually deliver any assets anymore. Yeah,
Rebecca Gunter: be kidding me Other
Gill Moakes: than to private clients, you know, well,
Rebecca Gunter: I could definitely see that that being a possibility as long as mommy still gets to write because Boy, do I love it.
Gill Moakes: I, I love that too, but I think in terms of revenue streams, it would be leaving a lot of money on the table for you, for Stone Fruit as a business to not have. A copywriting service that people can tap into because type of people that are going to be attracted to stone fruit do not have a ton of options in terms of people who would be capable of providing them with the kind of copy they want.
That's so fun. That's what. Plus it's so
Rebecca Gunter: fun. And not just for me, for copywriters who love to write copy. It is so fun. I'm
Gill Moakes: a blast. Now I feel like what you deliver is going to be a hell of a lot easier to answer now.
Rebecca Gunter: Well, words, ideas and motivation question.
Gill Moakes: That's so strange because when you, when you answered the question of who are you?
You gave a really full description of what you deliver and now I'm asking you what you're delivering.
Rebecca Gunter: That's how positioning is everybody. That's how
Gill Moakes: positioning is. And you're getting a potted version of it here because positioning is a very in depth conversation and also can I just highlight again the fact that I'm not the expert. But in this, Rebecca asks way better, more probing questions than I do.
So if you think I'm giving her a hard time, I'm really not. I'm trying to replicate the way she does it because it's so effective.
Rebecca Gunter: You're doing a great job, Gilly. You're doing great here. Yeah. I will, um, just give you a warning that I really only. Can be on this live stream for another few more minutes before I have to jump to another one.
Gill Moakes: I know, but that's perfect, because I don't even want us to go to why you're different, special or the one, because I want that to be the surprise reveal
Rebecca Gunter: on the 2nd of November. So
Gill Moakes: for this one, week four, this is when we're going to again, close the positioning loop at the beginning. Like we did this time with the goals, we closed that loop at the beginning.
On the, on the model and pricing episode, we're going to close the loop on positioning. Rebecca's going to do the reveal of her full positioning statement that we've almost got to today. And actually, I feel like we could wrap now and wait for that. Kind of that what you deliver and what makes you different special on the one when you reveal the final statement on the second at the beginning of that show, because once we have that in our grubby little mitts, can you then see how that feeds perfectly into your business model and your pricing?
Because only when you've nailed your positioning, can you have any inkling of the exact offers that are perfect for your ideal clients? Until you've done your positioning and know who your ideal clients are, what they need and what you need to deliver to them at a higher level, can you then go in and actually figure out what the exact offers are that need to sit inside your business that will deliver on those promises and everyone's nemesis pricing.
Rebecca Gunter: I feel kind of good about pricing. I feel like I have a good handle on that one. So I don't know. Maybe
Gill Moakes: you have a good money mindset. To be fair,
Rebecca Gunter: that's shocking sometimes. But thank you. I like jelly. You're being so generous with my money mindset. You're right. Sometimes and sometimes
Gill Moakes: not. I think pricing is one of those things where I have a good money mindset sometimes and sometimes not.
Rebecca Gunter: Yeah, I'm looking forward to getting into it and I'm looking forward to expanding on the that delivers part and And sharing with you what I come up with so Gilly. I cannot thank you enough for Substantial time and being a part of what we do here. Gilly. Tell the folks at home your website
Gill Moakes: address It is GillMoakes.
com. So it's Gill with a G G I double L M O A K E S dot com. Get more of that monosomatic. There, there's, there's lots of resources there. There's links to the podcast and do grab the vision and goal setting bundle because that is going to give you, um, workbooks. It'll give you, it actually delivers like five workbooks, um, that really take you through this whole process that we're doing at the moment.
So do
Rebecca Gunter: go and grab that. Very, very good, Gilly. I love you. You're my bestie so much of all the things and I cannot wait to get back into it and thanks for not making me cry on live stream this time, but you're still working on for another three episodes.
Gill Moakes: I mean, that's my goal. Yeah.
Rebecca Gunter: All right, Gilly. Bye everybody.
