Ursula (00:00.59)
I'm great Jill, I'm great Jill, really pleased to be here. Thank you so much for having me.
Gill Moakes (00:01.845)
Hi, how are you?
Gill Moakes (00:06.869)
Oh my goodness, it's absolutely my pleasure and we've wanted to make this happen for a while so I'm very excited to have you on the show today and I mean we know each other pretty well now don't we but for the listeners who don't know you can you give us a little kind of a quick potted history of who you are and and what you do please?
Ursula (00:30.126)
Cool, okay. So, yeah, I'm Ursula. I'm getting quite old now. So it's quite a long history, but I'll try and be as quick as I can. I'm a coach and coaching consultant, but I've been on quite a journey to get there over the years. I started off at school doing my A levels in science and absolutely hated it and bummed out of it and ended up going to university.
Gill Moakes (00:36.949)
Ha ha ha ha!
Gill Moakes (00:53.653)
That's something... Do you know that's something we have in common? Because I did physics at A level. Weirdly. Yeah, but do you know, I share something really bad. And this is so bad. I mean, I'm pretty sure that my physics teacher doesn't listen to this podcast. It'd be hilarious if she does. But I got so far behind in my A levels that I told her I had glandular fever.
Ursula (00:59.918)
So did I, yeah, I did, yeah, yeah. Physics, maths and chemistry.
Gill Moakes (01:18.677)
so far behind in my A -levels that I told her I had glandular fever. I did not have glandular fever. But I made up that I had glandular fever and she was so nice and she was like, oh, just do what you feel you can manage. Don't worry. So that was it. I never went back to another class. So I did not pass my physics A -level. So yeah, I don't think science was our destiny, was it?
Ursula (01:29.838)
Thank you.
Ursula (01:36.16)
Brilliant. That's... Well, I... No, but you know what? What's interesting though, what I love about that is you're a bit like, it's not working for me, I'm not putting the effort in. Whereas me, I'm used to being the good girl. I always did what everyone else expected of me. And it made me a bit miserable. And that's sort of been one of those things I remember in life is like doing stuff that makes sense to me because it's what I want to be doing, not because it's what society teaches parents, et cetera.
Gill Moakes (01:54.471)
Mmm.
Ursula (02:05.902)
expect of you. They said do science because you're a girl and you know we're talking the 1980s and you know we need more female scientists right. Not do you love it, are you interested in it, but you know be heard down there. So for that reason I think that was my first sort of breakout of like this is not what I want to be doing. So then I kind of bummed out of that and I ended up going to university.
Gill Moakes (02:12.487)
Yep.
Gill Moakes (02:20.949)
Yeah.
Gill Moakes (02:25.525)
Oh, that's pretty cool.
Ursula (02:32.11)
after a year and I was lucky enough at that time to work in a photographic studio and we used to make pop videos and things like that and I managed to get a bit of a portfolio together from that, made my own little film. There was a travel program on at the time with a very cool lady called Magenta Divine who's had this really kind of sharp haircut, do you remember? Do you? Yeah, you remember her? Yeah, yeah she was great.
Gill Moakes (02:52.085)
I loved her! I loved her! Yes!
Ursula (02:57.838)
So I did a kind of pastiche on like a local village, which really had nothing there apart from haircuts, hairdressers and estate agents. And I put that in and I got to go to uni to do that, which was great. But interestingly, being, I probably have somewhere, but it's probably on like a format that I can't, I haven't even got a machine to play it on, like VHS or something, but.
Gill Moakes (03:09.173)
Have you still got it?
I want you to make it your mission to try and resurrect it. Brilliant.
Ursula (03:22.35)
Okay. Oh yeah. Okay. I will. I'll have a look for that. But I didn't sort of, when I finished university in photography and film, I didn't sort of go the creative side of the camera. I went the more organisational side. And I think that had something to do with confidence a little bit as well, because it's actually quite hard to sort of stick your neck out and be creative. Anyway, my journey for the sort of next 10,
Gill Moakes (03:40.213)
Mm.
Ursula (03:50.126)
10 years or so was through worked at the BBC. We worked in post -production, worked with a lot of creative people, making programmes, finishing programmes. And then I went over to a branding agency where we did lots of rebranding and worked on the BBC rebrands at the end of the, at the beginning of the nineties. And then I had that kind of thing. This really isn't working for me again. I love being creative, but I don't like the...
Gill Moakes (04:06.759)
you
Ursula (04:18.286)
culture within these creative organizations a little bit. It was very much a kind of, you know, I'm creative, I've got creative in my job title, you know, and you're not because you've got, you know, you've got account director in your job title or whatever. And I really didn't agree with that. I was always felt, well, I am creative. I'm just expressing my creativity in a different way. But it really wasn't anything that that anyone took any notice of, if you like.
Gill Moakes (04:28.277)
Yeah.
you
Ursula (04:45.966)
So I kind of bummed out of that as well and decided to completely change my life after a trip to see a friend in Scotland where we drank all the whiskeys on the top row of the shelf. Got very existential and the next day...
Gill Moakes (04:46.549)
See, I now I feel like the best decisions are made after nights like that. I've made some of my best life changing decisions after a top row.
Ursula (05:02.062)
Yeah.
Ursula (05:06.126)
Well, you're a woman after my own heart then, to be honest, because the next day, you know, sort of probably, probably sweating whiskey through the pores, we went to a reflexology session and I sat at the bottom, I sat in this reflexology room and the woman sat at the bottom at my feet, had just qualified as reflexologist and she was so passionate about it. I was like, that is what I want to do. And literally by the time I got home, which was a bit arduous because the plane...
Gill Moakes (05:12.245)
you
Gill Moakes (05:30.951)
Oh God.
Ursula (05:34.446)
the lovely Ryanair Diversitas to Birmingham and I was trying to get distanced it. So we got halfway from Scotland to where I was going. And then I had to get a bus, you know, had to get a coach back and everything. So that was a bit of a disaster, but surprisingly I was feeling very Zen because of this reflexology thing. So it was a life changing moment and I thought I'm going to do that. And I literally by the end of the week had enrolled on a course to start at the beginning of January and that was it. And that was the start of my journey into holistic stuff, into alternative ways of.
looking at the world in creativity in a completely different way. I suppose like creativity in terms of being unplugged from the matrix, if you like, and just seeing everything completely fresh like a child again, that curiosity, that awe, that just real kind of like accelerated learning you get. And then from there, I went and did hypnotherapy and NLP and coaching. And this was like 20 years ago before, you know, the ICF was a thing and, you know, we have all this kind of support around.
Gill Moakes (06:06.229)
Mmm.
Gill Moakes (06:16.021)
Yeah.
Gill Moakes (06:25.493)
you
Ursula (06:32.334)
coaching and it was really exciting and then I decided well the answer is to set up a retreat so I you know ended up getting this shackled down cortijo this is 20 years ago now in Spain and living there for a bit and then it all went another complete disaster it all went completely wrong again and I split up with the guy that I bought the house with and living there in your early 30s in the middle of nowhere.
Gill Moakes (07:00.693)
Oh, no, that must have been tough.
Ursula (07:01.838)
without a sense of the future, it wasn't really the right place. So it was like, come back, regroup. It was really tough. It was really tough, but it was a very lonely place. And that was all right if you're there knowing that someone's coming back at some point. But when it was kind of like, that was the trajectory of your life, that for me wasn't enough. It probably in some ways would be now, actually, it wouldn't bother me now. But at the time, I was like, no, it's not the right time for this. So I came back.
Gill Moakes (07:24.085)
Hmm.
Ursula (07:29.806)
the UK and I ended up back in the creative industries again, again doing branding, this time internationally, traveled all over the world supporting broadcasters with their channel brands and working with some really great thinking partners actually, some great creative directors who valued people's diverse thinking as well as some really shitty dickheads as well, the whole caboodle. So I learnt a lot, I learnt a lot from that.
Gill Moakes (07:49.319)
Yeah, the whole spectrum.
Ursula (07:59.726)
And what I also learned from that as well was I brought then my coaching approach to everything that I did. So my coaching approach to leadership, if you like, of the stuff that I was doing. So that meant that it felt very different, but it all lacked quite a bit of purpose for me and meaning. And then eventually a sort of a bad work experience meant that I kind of became a refugee or an escapee, let's say. Let's say it's an escapee from the corporate world.
Gill Moakes (08:01.749)
you
Gill Moakes (08:13.045)
you
Gill Moakes (08:25.415)
you
Ursula (08:29.006)
and
Gill Moakes (08:29.109)
Yeah, join the, join the corporate escapee club. There's lots of us, aren't there? It's funny, isn't it? It's strange how so often, so many of the women I talk to as well are propelled to do the thing that they can't not do, the thing that they're obsessed with. But for some reason we wait until there's something really bad that propels us to do it.
Ursula (08:34.19)
it exactly and decided then...
Gill Moakes (08:57.269)
Don't you think that's weird? Like, it's almost like the... I don't know. I don't know why the longing to do something isn't as strong as the desperation to get away from something. It's a tough one.
Ursula (08:59.918)
Yeah, what is that? What is that?
Ursula (09:16.302)
Hmm is that sort of like your fear of change is there until the fear of not changing becomes even more scary than the fear of changing it's that kind of thing isn't it?
Gill Moakes (09:24.053)
That's right. Yeah, absolutely. And that is what it comes down to essentially. But, you know, I think it's something I'm quite mindful of now that I try to keep focused on what I want and don't wait until what I have is too bad to bear, you know? Yeah.
Ursula (09:45.486)
Yeah, that's so true. And I think the more you go through things like that in life, the more you can look back and sort of say, was that a really good thing? Or that was a really awful thing that happened. Was it actually a really good thing? Because it was a pivotal moment and you're like, yeah, okay, so how can I create that pivotal moment without waiting until it gets to that really bad place? And yeah, because I don't know about you, but you look back at those things and you're like, actually, there was some good that came out of that. And actually, if I'd have...
Gill Moakes (10:00.597)
Yeah. Absolutely.
Ursula (10:14.702)
if I'd have done it before waiting for it it would have happened even earlier and who knows where I might have been not that I'm somebody that does regrets because there's no point is there regrets just make you miserable all you can all you have is now and all you can do is look forward really so
Gill Moakes (10:19.189)
Absolutely.
Gill Moakes (10:24.085)
No, absolutely right. Yeah.
Gill Moakes (10:31.637)
And so that's what you did. So you had this experience, you know, it was a shitty experience within work and it really got you looking at the whole concept of leadership in a bit of a different way, didn't it?
Ursula (10:47.438)
Definitely. And, you know, a lot of the time when you feel like a fish out of water somewhere, you think, oh, the problem is mine. And actually it's not. It's the fact that you're in the wrong culture and it doesn't align with your values. So the importance of having, you know, leaders in your business that align with the values of the business. So if you're somebody that has integrity and you're not working in a business with integrity, it's never going to line up no matter how you, no matter how you have to do it. Not that I'm saying that I've worked anywhere that doesn't have integrity, if you like.
Gill Moakes (11:05.621)
you
Ursula (11:16.814)
as an example. But then I went on and worked with in, you know, alongside, you know, developing my coaching business in a completely different working environment that was remote first. It was they use the term work style. It's about showing up to work and doing your best work when it works for you, not within nine to five, because nine to five excludes a lot of people who who might need to.
Gill Moakes (11:26.005)
Mm.
Ursula (11:43.982)
care for their kids or drop them at school or look after an aging parent or who are dealing with an illness or a mental health issue, but actually want to be able to work. But the current nine to five working environment does not enable them to do that because they can't physically get to the office and be there within those hours. And that was really incredible because not only was I learning to lead in a place that.
Gill Moakes (11:44.039)
Yeah.
Gill Moakes (11:53.077)
you
Ursula (12:08.526)
there was no visibility of what people were doing. So you had to really extend the trust that everybody was going to do what they were saying that they were going to do. And the way in which you measured how people were doing it was completely different. And then secondly, you also, there was no visibility of you as a leader because you weren't in the room with people. You were remotely, I was sitting here in my pod leading people and I wasn't in an office in the corner where people could knock on the door and...
Gill Moakes (12:17.205)
Yeah.
Gill Moakes (12:29.173)
you
Gill Moakes (12:36.949)
Mm.
Ursula (12:37.39)
So it was learning to leave from that way. So I think all of that together has meant that I've come to where I'm at now.
Gill Moakes (12:44.245)
And what just for so we can understand the timeline of that. So when was was that that you were doing this kind of remote first work? Was that pre or post pandemic? So that's amazing. That's what struck me about that was that my goodness, that was actually very forward thinking for back then, because pre pandemic, you know, we never I don't know any other companies that put remote first.
Ursula (12:55.662)
Pre -pandemic, we were so pandemic ready. In fact, you know, what was fascinating was like, yeah.
Gill Moakes (13:14.215)
Thank you.
Ursula (13:14.51)
No, no, absolutely. They, yeah, I mean, they have been operating since 2014. So we were already, yeah, I was already, I joined to work with them in about 2017. So we were already three years into this way of doing it. And it was quite funny when you saw all these other more traditional organizations going, ooh, we're gonna work remotely and we can do it on Zoom. You're like, no shit, Sherlock, we've been doing that for years, you know. And actually,
Gill Moakes (13:29.525)
Bye.
Gill Moakes (13:38.389)
Yeah!
Ursula (13:44.494)
And what I also learnt there was if you work in a creative agency where everyone comes in every day, people kind of start, they look the same, they all kind of, you know, dress the same, they all go to the same place to get their lunch or similar, you know, all sat in the same office with the same Macs and everything. And I can remember sometimes wandering around the studio because, you know, it was a design studio that, you know, suddenly this week the theme was purple brands because there was so much thinking where everyone had.
Gill Moakes (13:47.125)
you
Gill Moakes (14:01.525)
you
Ursula (14:11.598)
sort of started to join together and that collective unconsciousness in the room started to produce the same ideas. It was really interesting. And yet in the environment when I was leading an agency where no one was working, I might have one designer in Australia working with another designer in Hackney. Well, I did. And and another one working on the continent somewhere. And so when they got up to go for their lunch or when they went out for a walk or they did anything else in their right, it was outside their front door was a completely different world. And they brought that different perspective.
Gill Moakes (14:22.997)
you
Mm -hmm.
Gill Moakes (14:39.285)
Mmm.
Ursula (14:41.678)
into the creative work they were doing. So the collective creativity in there was, you know, was interesting. It had other some, you know, issues like when you're sat side by side with someone, sometimes you can have a shorthand which makes things go more quickly. But is what you get out of it not as good, probably, because often you can find you end up going just going down the same train track of thinking and not bringing kind of wider sources of inspiration into what you're doing. So that was something I thought was really brilliant.
Gill Moakes (14:55.829)
Yeah, sure.
Gill Moakes (15:02.503)
Mm.
Ursula (15:11.502)
was that not only are people showing up when it works best for them, when they can be their creative best, but secondly, they're also bringing the different daily inputs of life, which was so much more interesting.
Gill Moakes (15:20.519)
So that was your first taste, I guess, of leadership really done differently. And is that kind of what sparked what has now become your mission, which is to help organizations and individuals look at leadership differently and to bring creativity into leadership? Is that kind of where that I guess where that sparked from?
Ursula (15:24.768)
Yeah.
Ursula (15:47.022)
100.
Gill Moakes (15:50.229)
And I'd love to understand more because your business, Co -Creative Future, is absolutely focused on this concept of co -creative leadership. And I'd love us to really understand what that is, what it means.
Gill Moakes (16:12.181)
Lena, bear with her, she's thinking. We'll edit that bit out.
Ursula (16:12.558)
So.
Ursula (16:17.678)
Um.
So co -creative leadership is a sort of a number of ingredients if you like. Let's think about it for today's conversation, let's think about it like a cake. It's got a few ingredients that are going to make this really delicious cake. Good, I'm a cake lady too. So first of all, coming from the place that everyone is creative. So as I've journeyed around, I can see that creativity comes from everywhere. And...
Gill Moakes (16:33.397)
My favourite topic.
Ursula (16:52.302)
You know, historically the research into creativity has always focused on like the elite, the super creatives that produce masterpieces, right? And exploring how they think and what their process is.
Gill Moakes (17:03.829)
Yeah, yeah, because we do. When we think about creativity, we think about artists and sculptors and composers and you know, and you're right, there's something quite elitist about it.
Ursula (17:19.63)
And historically, when you go right back to the Greek philosopher times when people talk about creativity, it's sort of linked with a superior intellect. And that was a line of research for many years. So it just meant the everyday Joe, like you and me, were not creative unless we're producing these incredible masterpieces. But then the thinking and the research has evolved. And...
Gill Moakes (17:32.117)
Mmm.
Gill Moakes (17:41.781)
you
Ursula (17:47.47)
you know, my own research in creativity that I did as part of my masters was exploring the everyday creativity in ordinary people who were absolutely not paid for being creative at work, for example. And, you know, what became clear is that for me is that creativity is it's an approach. It's a way of it's a way of showing up. It's a way of being, if you like. It's like I'm not creative because I can.
Gill Moakes (18:02.887)
you
Gill Moakes (18:14.919)
you
Ursula (18:17.422)
do a beautiful drawing or a beautiful sculpture like you said, I am creative because I ask, I can ask a question or I can look at things with wonder, I can make links between things or I'm just open to new experiences. It's just, it's about how you show up. It's about your approach to things that...
that makes humans creative. And when you think about creativity on that front and you realise that, you know, when you look at children and children's creativity, not from the scribbles on a page, but just the way in which they approach life, you know, you can see that there's human creativity in there and it kind of gets drilled out of us as we get older in that kind of, you know, we must conform, we must, you know, get a job, buy a house, have a family.
and then have a midlife crisis because we realised we've wasted half our life doing what someone else wanted for us. And, you know, creativity is undervalued because it's awkward, because it doesn't, it means you're not a yes man. It means you don't, you don't do things the way that everyone tells you to do things. You're doing it your own way. And so it's a bit awkward in the education system. It's a bit awkward because...
Gill Moakes (19:08.277)
Yeah.
Gill Moakes (19:15.381)
I love that! I think that's a really... that's the perfect word to describe it. It is a little bit awkward. It doesn't fit the measurable expectations of the school system or the...
Ursula (19:31.214)
you
Gill Moakes (19:43.605)
many employment systems as well. Great way to describe it.
Ursula (19:47.086)
And yet we want to say to people you've got to be innovative, you've got to be innovative and it's almost like you know you've got this big finger, you guys, you've got to be innovative so that you can be more productive and get more stuff done and when you behave like that actually you put people in a state of fear and we know that fear is not good for creativity because you have to be in a sort of safe space where you can experiment if you're fearful of stepping out of line or making...
Gill Moakes (20:01.845)
you
Gill Moakes (20:08.181)
Yeah.
Ursula (20:16.43)
mistake, you aren't going to push the boundaries beyond the comfort zone. You know, it's like we talk about outside your comfort zone is where the magic happens. Well, in order to get outside your comfort zone, you're going to have to make a shit ton of mistakes in order to find the magic, right? But if you always stay in your comfort zone and you never make a mistake, you are definitely not going to innovate. So.
Gill Moakes (20:26.389)
And being, and I guess so being in an environment where leaders aren't cultivating a safe environment, then there is no motivation for anyone to move outside of their comfort zone.
Ursula (20:49.934)
That's right. Why put your head above the parapet if you're going to get, yeah, yeah. So that is not conducive to creativity. So for me, that makes me start looking at how do we create a safe space? And we know that from the state of leadership that people are feeling burnt out, we've got more mental health issues in this country than ever before and globally. There is so much wrong at the moment in the workplace. And we also know...
Gill Moakes (20:50.677)
because that would be terrifying.
Gill Moakes (20:55.797)
No, that's really interesting.
Gill Moakes (21:10.453)
you
Ursula (21:19.694)
that people don't leave their jobs, they leave their bosses. So hold on a minute. If people are leaving their bosses and they're getting, because they're burnt out, that has to be something to do with how they feel about the leaders around them and how they're being managed, if you like. And what I talk about is very much about leadership. I think we should all be doing more leading and less managing. We're all grown -ups, we can manage ourselves. We just, we might need leading and pointing in the right direction.
and inspiring and to be part of a community, to be part of a team where we're all thriving and doing our best and getting to where we want to go in the process. So for me, another part of the co -creativeness is about collaboration, is being in it together. Yes.
Gill Moakes (21:51.367)
you
Gill Moakes (22:01.749)
I love that.
Is that another ingredient of the cake? I'd love to, I love this concept of there being these different ingredients that all come together that form what I think you've established, which is an incredibly robust framework around creative leadership, which I know we'll touch on in a bit, but yeah, I'd love to understand more about what are the other ingredients that go into this?
Ursula (22:34.766)
Yeah, so you're right. Collaboration is the second ingredient. And it's that idea of sort of leaders moving away from just the pure telling and directing and delegating to being more like working together, co -creating the vision and going on the journey with everybody. There's also good and bad collaboration. I mean, we've got slight, you know, there was a great book I was looking at the other day whose author I've
Gill Moakes (22:38.325)
you
Ursula (23:01.806)
forgive me, I can't remember, but it's called collaboration overload. And it was really interesting, this concept of good and bad collaboration. It's like, collaboration can almost be an excuse for not trusting as well, right? Because when we don't trust, we have to collaborate because then we know everything that's going on and let's collaborate. But actually, there's almost like, there are bits that we want to collaborate on and then there are times to make some decisions or there are times to work solo and get stuff done. And then there's times to go back to collaboration. I think that contributes part of this.
I was talking to a leader the other day about the fact that they were having to step away from their job because they can't get the job done because they're always on Zoom meetings, seven hours a day, eight hours a day. It's like that's collaboration gone nuts, really, isn't it? You know, we're mistaking collaboration for information sharing. So we must collaborate. Let's all get together on a meeting and therefore we share a lot of information which actually could be shared in many other ways.
Gill Moakes (23:35.029)
you
Yeah, absolutely.
Yep. Yep.
Ursula (23:58.958)
where is the actual collaboration, the kind of new thinking that's coming out of a group of people getting together that's beyond what everyone already knew when they came into the room.
Gill Moakes (23:59.253)
Mm -mm.
Gill Moakes (24:04.149)
Do you know, it's funny, as you're saying that, I'm feeling like that's another thing that's hampered when you're not in a safe environment. People are too scared to put their different ideas forward. So people come together like sheep and tend to just kind of all agree with each other. And I think this is another thing where leaders embrace this creative.
aspect to what they do, then they start fostering an environment where people actually, where true collaboration can happen, where the thing that comes as the output of the collaboration is greater than the two minds individually, which is really what should happen with collaboration. Like you say, it's not just sharing information around a room, but you have to feel safe for that to happen.
Ursula (24:56.622)
Yeah, or just coming in with your ideas you've already had. Yeah, 100%. That's so, so true. And with that safety is a massive, massive dollop of trust in there as well. So although trust is part of the wet ingredients of collaboration, if you like, we have to, that safe space includes a lot of trust. And if you trust people to come and have their ideas heard.
Gill Moakes (25:00.725)
Right.
Gill Moakes (25:04.405)
Yes.
Gill Moakes (25:15.669)
Yeah.
Ursula (25:25.006)
they can get out of that kind of pre -prepared thinking and move more into that more present kind of evolving, emerging creativity that actually what is great collaboration. And bad collaboration is that place where you've got no trust and people are just coming with their pre -prepared ideas and advocating for their idea being the one. And I won't share my idea because you might take it away from me and you might get the credit for it or...
Gill Moakes (25:27.701)
Mm -hmm.
Gill Moakes (25:35.413)
Mmm.
Ursula (25:53.454)
I'm going to advocate for my idea because I'm not willing to build on it or grow or evolve with it. So that's my ingredient number two. And then, you know, we already talked about sort of a coaching approach to leadership, you know, that kind of in service. It's there in support. It's there as more of a Sherpa. You're guiding people. You're guiding people to achieve it for themselves, to do it for themselves, to do their best, to play to their strengths.
Gill Moakes (26:03.911)
you
Gill Moakes (26:12.181)
Yes.
Gill Moakes (26:18.581)
I love what you said just now about, you know, we're grownups, we don't need managing, we need leading. And that's such a good distinction to make, isn't it? And that, I think your framework around creative leadership really leans into that. It is absolutely about the essence of leading, not managing people.
Ursula (26:25.614)
Mmm.
Ursula (26:44.846)
Absolutely. I don't know about you, but I sort of see so much of the conversation, the kind of narrative that goes on, even when people talk about it in the news. It's this idea that the kind of establishment or the business that we're in is kind of the parent. And I'm a powerless child inside it. And therefore, when things go wrong, I blame you. And when things, you know, and when I can't make what I want happen, I've got no power to change it. And I think that fundamentally needs to shift. You know, we're all.
grown up and working in a business, we need to be able to create the autonomy for people to be able to say, this is how I want to do it and to be seen and heard and for the organisation to enable that. If that's taking everybody in the right direction of where they want to go, to make the experience of doing it, which is my fourth ingredient, what everybody wants.
Gill Moakes (27:28.117)
Hmm.
Gill Moakes (27:33.749)
Mm.
Ursula (27:44.302)
rather than the being a slave to the system because I have no power to affect any change. So it's all about agency and we talk a lot about agency at the moment don't we but it's really about that ability to be able to take control of your own destiny, to have the autonomy to be able to live and work in a way that works for you and for you to deliver your best.
Gill Moakes (28:01.397)
Yeah, absolutely. And just as you were saying that sometimes I feel like in the current broken system of leadership that I think is rife, there's there is almost a lose lose scenario for people because they don't feel safe, generally don't feel safe enough to
share their ideas, but when they do, if it's a bad idea or if it's a mistake, they get blamed. And if it's a great idea, it's stolen by the leaders. So it's a real lose -lose scenario. And I think this is where your concept around creative leadership really flips that on its head. And it's why I believe it is such a core concept for moving forward.
with modern leadership. And I'd love us to kind of go into what that looks like. And what you believe is how that can all look different, how leadership.
Ursula (29:17.486)
So I was gonna say that's a little pause moment anyway, because I'm like, how the bloody hell do I answer that? I've got one more ingredient. I've got one more ingredient, which is that...
Gill Moakes (29:17.653)
Lena, I'm bumbling that a bit. Also, I want to talk to her really quick. Yeah, exactly. Lena, we're on pause. I didn't want to ask that because you've given quite a lot of that anyway in what we've been talking about. One thing, what about just going into a little bit about changing focus?
Ursula (29:37.71)
Yeah. Yeah, I don't kind of.
Gill Moakes (29:47.445)
So I don't know if you want to go into output eclipse, but I was going to ask something about, I thought it might be good to ask something about, obviously leadership still has to have an eye on productivity. There still has to be a, you know, there has to be a tie in with leadership and the overall goals of an organization. So how do you address that from a co -creative standpoint? Yeah. Okay.
Ursula (29:52.206)
Well, I'm talking.
Ursula (30:11.822)
Yeah, OK, so what that does is gives me the opportunity to talk about the fourth ingredient, which is co -creating the journey and making a great experience for everybody, which is kind of a different way of saying the output eclipse. And I think I'll save that for the masterclass. But I'll talk about co -creating. But it also then gives me an opportunity to talk about wellbeing and how creativity supports wellbeing. And we know that when people are feeling well and engaged, their productivity goes up. So it gives me the opportunity to say that. Is that all right? That's a response. Yeah.
Gill Moakes (30:17.717)
Yes, we didn't finish the fourth ingredient. Okay.
Yeah, save that for the master class. Okay.
Gill Moakes (30:30.133)
Yes, okay, perfect.
Gill Moakes (30:37.077)
Yeah, perfect. Lena, can you just go back to when I just started rambling slightly? And I'll take it into the next ingredient. Okay, I'll jump back in now.
Ursula (30:41.87)
Okay.
Gill Moakes (30:54.901)
Yeah so I really do love this concept of these different ingredients by the way, making up the cake, it's such a good way to understand it and...
Ursula (31:01.71)
Thank you.
Gill Moakes (31:10.485)
going back to.
Ursula (31:12.078)
So it's your idea, actually one thing while we've stopped again.
Gill Moakes (31:15.381)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, if you're happy to. Yeah, definitely. Love to.
Ursula (31:16.91)
that I'm coaching with you at the moment or would you rather I didn't do that? Yeah then I want to credit you for the for the idea of the ingredients so because it was your idea.
Gill Moakes (31:27.925)
Oh no, keep that. No, keep that as yours. Keep that as your idea. Don't credit me for that. I can just mention that we're coaching together in the intro if you're happy for me to. Yeah, okay, lovely.
Ursula (31:40.558)
Yeah, yeah, no problem, yeah.
Gill Moakes (31:45.045)
Yeah. So what about I know there's another ingredient. No fucking hell. Lena, literally, I know you're going to kill me by the end of this episode. I can't get my head back to where I was. So Lena, just patch this together as best you can. What was the third ingredient that we were just talking about that I can segue into the next bit.
Ursula (32:03.598)
We were just talking about a coaching approach to leadership and the sort of the idea of being in service and turning it on its head. You were talking about what's really good about this as it turns it all on its head.
Gill Moakes (32:10.389)
Yes. Yes.
Yes.
So this whole concept around this coaching approach, which I just love because it does, it genuinely does flip things on its head, this in -service concept rather than this experience that I think a lot of us can relate to. You know, particularly those of us who are corporate escapees who have experienced this kind of leadership, I think is really core to this, isn't it? It is really learning.
how to have this in service approach, which again forms part of the work that you do with clients. What else? What's the next ingredient that goes in?
Ursula (32:58.894)
I've got one more ingredient at the moment but who knows the recipe might evolve, continue to evolve as we co -create the future right yeah we might we might need another cherry on the top or something so but this one is all about and I sort of alluded to it and when we were talking previously it's about the co -creating the journey it's about the experience of getting to the goal if you like you know we can be very very you know
Gill Moakes (33:05.813)
All the best recipes do don't they? All the best recipes you know... exactly!
Ursula (33:28.75)
focused on outputs and productivity. And those things are really important when we're running a business. We've got to achieve the goals and the business and the numbers that we want that we want to achieve to make our business sustainable. But sometimes we can do that at the expense of thinking about anything else. And we forget that also the experience of going to work when we are when we are spending large chunks of our day and probably more time on work than we are.
other aspects of our life, we want to make that experience really great. And so there's two parts to this really. One is that it's sort of holding the paradox sometimes between getting to the outcome, getting to that goal, but also making it a great experience. And that might sound a little bit kind of fluffy and well, you know, oh, we can't afford to be nicely, nicely. We just need to kind of get our head down and doing it. But.
What this is about really is about sustainability, isn't it? It's about keeping people's wellbeing in mind or people keeping your own wellbeing in mind. We know we've had lots of people talk about getting burnt out while they're heading towards those goals. So we can really push really fast, really quickly, but we can't do that sustainably for long periods of time. Usain Bolt can sprint. He's the fastest sprinter in the world or was.
Gill Moakes (34:50.709)
Exactly.
Ursula (34:55.822)
But even he needs to lie down and have a rest sometimes. So he needs to balance all of that. And so we need to think about that when we are developing the goal so we can create something over the long term that is sustainable. And it sounds counterintuitive because it's a bit like, well, we haven't got time to think about that because we're busy getting to the goal. But the consequence of that is you might get to that goal in the short term, but in the longer term, people are going to fall over. They're going to be burnt out.
Gill Moakes (34:58.357)
Yeah, yeah.
Gill Moakes (35:23.207)
Yeah.
Ursula (35:25.102)
And so this is where creativity and this kind of approach is also great because we know from research how brilliant creativity is for wellbeing. And I don't mean wellbeing in the sense of, you know, a bowl of fruit on the table and, you know, a gym on site, right? I'm talking about the wellbeing of being in a creative process or, you know, helps people feel like they have a purpose. It gives them more kind of value in terms of...
where they're headed, it gives things meaning that they didn't have before. It creates positive relationships. These are all aspects of, you know, there's a very well known, very well researched wellbeing model that comes out of positive psychology called PERMA, which you can very easily look up and you can look it up on my past posts. But you know, that's positive relationships, it's engagement, it's people, if you are engaged in a creative process, you are more engaged.
Gill Moakes (36:06.133)
Mm -hmm.
Ursula (36:21.23)
you know, if you have meaning in what you're doing, you're going to be more engaged, you're going to feel better, your well -being is going to be increased. And we know, the research tells us that people are massively more productive when they feel good about what they're doing. So although it feels counterintuitive, we've got to kind of unlearn some of that myths, if you like, and get back to the place of if we can hold these two seemingly paradoxical things together and put well -being at the centre of what we do with people.
And my take on that is to bring creativity because that touches every aspect of wellbeing. Then we end up with more productivity and we get people who are happy about what they're doing. How good is that? As far as I'm concerned, that's brilliant.
Gill Moakes (37:04.725)
That's a complete win -win. It's a complete win -win. And one thing that I was just thinking as you were talking about that was how there's so much truth in terms of looking at wellbeing through this lens of people feeling like they're listened to, they're feeling heard, they're feeling seen, they're feeling understood. Like I feel like that is a massive...
part of the human condition, it's one of the real needs that we have, is to feel that way. And the contribution that has to the sustainable success of a business, I think is absolutely huge. It also, and we've talked about this before, haven't we, of how organizations who embrace this like co -creative leadership concept are the ones who suddenly
you know, they are going to see their retention of their staff go up. They're going to see their productivity increase in a really good way, in a meaningful way that's not at the cost of their employees. That feels like the crux of this whole concept to me. It's success, but not at the expense of your people. And is that what every business wants?
Ursula (38:16.206)
Yeah, and it seems so simple, but we're just not doing it. You know, we're just not doing it. And we're stuck in this cycle of, you know, pushing people to breaking point and then people leaving and then we're stuck in that, got to find more people and all of that energy sucked in there and we can't.
Gill Moakes (38:31.221)
Right, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
Ursula (38:46.222)
step back into actually thinking about how do we make this a great place for people to work. That means, you know, people stay, people love it, you know, that people want to work there. So, you know, it makes your recruiting easier. And. Yeah.
Gill Moakes (39:01.397)
your sickness levels go down, your, you know, there are just so many benefits of this. And I feel like the naysayers are going to be like, yeah, but what's the cost of the bottom line? And I just think that that's a, it's the wrong lens to look at it through because number one, for a lot of companies, it will be, have a improved result on the bottom line.
because all of the inefficiencies that come in when companies don't look after their people have an impact on the bottom line. But also, I think, to your point about the sustainability, you have to be looking at your business through that lens now. So tell me...
Ursula (39:46.542)
Yeah, 100 % agree, so well put.
Gill Moakes (39:57.653)
For anyone listening to this who wants to find out a little bit more about you and you know, you are, in my opinion, you're an absolute thought leader around this. I think you're, you're, and you have a brilliant way of explaining these concepts as well. So I think everyone's going to appreciate that from this episode because you make it, what I love about the way you talk about this is you make it really real. It's, it's not.
kind of airy -fairy leadership speak because you don't do that. You're absolutely, you speak our language that we can understand. And I really like that it makes it so accessible for people to get it. I think this is part of the problem with some of the leadership experts that I see out there is that there is a desire for them to sound.
Ursula (40:33.998)
Thanks Jill.
Gill Moakes (40:52.565)
very kind of academic about it. And because I know you well, I know that you actually, I believe you are pretty academic about your subject, you're incredibly well researched about your subject. But when you talk about it, you just talk about it in a way that people get it and can understand. So first of all, thank you for bringing that to us. If people want to find out more, how do they find out more? Where can they go?
Ursula (41:10.51)
Thank you for having me.
Ursula (41:22.606)
So you can follow me on social media on LinkedIn Ursula Cappell and I'm talking a lot about this stuff on my LinkedIn posts and at the moment I, if you want to sign up to my newsletter you can do that via LinkedIn or via my website which is co -creatorfuture .com and I've got a fantastic new freebie on there at the moment which is about the level of trust in your organisation. It's a kind of a
Gill Moakes (41:49.493)
I love that. And that's not...
Ursula (41:51.534)
reflection piece that you could do for yourself, do with your team and it's downloadable if you sign up to my newsletter which is short and sweet once a week mostly and you can download that and you can use that straight away to kind of get a capture what's going on right now and what are the areas you might want to focus on and if you want to hear me...
Gill Moakes (42:14.805)
just for big organizations, is it either that can be for anyone who's working either working as part of a team or, you know, who leads a team or owns a business, you know, we don't, this doesn't, this isn't just for big faceless organizations. It's actually as important, if not more important for smaller businesses to be building this culture.
Ursula (42:38.478)
That's right I'm doing one in January, in April, let me do that.
Gill Moakes (42:41.109)
as they go, as they grow and scale their businesses. So I would urge anyone, yeah, to head to Astrid's website, co -creativefuture .com and grab that for Rebi. But you are also, a little bird told me, hosting a masterclass before long. Yeah.
Ursula (43:07.886)
Yes, that's right. I'm doing one in April. It's a introduction to co -creative leadership masterclass with a few surprise. Start again. Can I say about a surprise special offer or something in there as well? OK, OK. So, yes, that's right. I'm doing a masterclass on co -creative leadership in April and within that is a few.
Gill Moakes (43:19.733)
Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, she'll go again, Lena. Oh, perfect. Okay, well, I really urge you to go and check.
Ursula (43:37.07)
special offers that you could take advantage of if you wanted to take the work further.
Gill Moakes (43:47.509)
I think this is going to be incredibly relevant and anyone who has a team for a start should be checking all of this out because this is such a core concept for leadership. Like I was just saying, it isn't just for big companies. This is so important that everyone's doing this at grassroots level as well because I think your mission actually is to change the face.
of leadership. And I think it's, it doesn't necessarily start top down, it starts with every business coming up, do it starting to do things differently. That's how things will change over the long term, which is an exciting prospect. So I will put all of the I'll put all of the links that we've talked about into the show notes so that people can register for the masterclass, download the freebie, find out more.
Ursula (44:27.79)
Yeah, that's something I'm really passionate about.
Gill Moakes (44:40.981)
Blog is really useful for getting some, you know, just some really good, solid advice, tips, things that you can, what I like about your blog actually is that it's stuff that people can take away straight away and start using in, with their teams.
And I really like that. It's not airy fairy stuff that, you know, a lot of what you put out there is quite solid advice and tips that people can use. So it's really good. I want to thank you so much for coming on to the show today. It's been such a pleasure. I love it. We well, we you and I.
Ursula (45:13.006)
Thank you.
Ursula (45:19.854)
Oh, it's been absolutely brilliant. I thank you so much for having me. What great fun and just lovely to be in this space with you to explore these ideas and and hopefully create the shift that we really want to see. Exactly. Great, I think that's probably about right. All right, thanks so much, Jill. Thank you very much for having me.
Gill Moakes (45:31.989)
You and I know we could talk about this all day, couldn't we really? That might be a tad too much for people, so perhaps we'll wrap now. Well, thank you so much and I will speak to you soon. Bye for now.
