Gill Moakes (00:01.311)
Hey Chris, welcome! How are you?
Kris Burbank (00:04.002)
Thank you. I'm great, it's great to be here. Thank you.
Gill Moakes (00:07.367)
Oh my goodness, I am so happy you're here. I'm beyond excited, I'm gonna be honest. I am beyond excited for this episode because this is one that is so dear and close to both of our hearts. The topic we're gonna be talking about today, it means so much to both of us and...
And to be honest with you, I'm really excited to share about our relationship and how that has developed also in the time we've worked together. So I when I was introducing you just now, you know, you are primarily a parent, but you are also a coach and an author. And so when we first met, it was because we worked together.
some business coaching. You were in the process of finishing your book and you wanted to create an online program. Can you tell me a little bit about what led you to me, if you like, in the first place and where you were at that time?
Kris Burbank (01:14.414)
Sure, sure. So first of all, thank you for being here and for everything you've done. I think you've helped me think about my world, my life, my gifts in just a transformational way. So that begins us on this journey, right? I'm a parent, I am the parent of three adult kids, the middle child who's not a child, he's a man now.
Gill Moakes (01:36.203)
Thank you.
Kris Burbank (01:43.302)
is a 27-year-old man with severe cerebral palsy. And over the course of his life and the lives of my other two kids, almost three decades, I have encountered so many amazing people. I've learned so much about myself. And so during the pandemic, I decided to go back to school and to get a certificate in leadership coaching. I didn't know what I was going to do with it. I thought I might coach.
leaders in a variety of different spaces like the nonprofit world or corporate sector. I think the world needs better leaders. But what I quickly learned was that everything that I was learning about leadership and leadership coaching could be applied to parents because parents are leaders in their homes, in their families, in their jobs, communities. So I quickly decided to expand what I was doing and
Gill Moakes (02:30.332)
Absolutely.
Kris Burbank (02:40.274)
and serve parents and specifically parents of young people with disabilities. And then I was approached to co-write this book with Dr. Linda Hoops, and it's all about resilience and helping families with disability build resilience. And then I was referred because I was struggling with what is this business of mine going to be and there aren't enough hours in the day to do everything I want to do. I was referred to you.
Gill Moakes (02:44.937)
Mm-hmm.
Kris Burbank (03:08.802)
to help me focus and streamline. And then lo and behold, I realized that not only did we have all these things in common professionally, but our personal lives had a lot of similarities. And so I think, you know, then the conversation ensued about, well, how else can you take what you're developing and share it with parents like us? And so the online course was born.
Gill Moakes (03:20.503)
Absolutely.
Gill Moakes (03:33.623)
Absolutely. I mean, it was amazing, wasn't it really, because I think we really click together and I mean, we're both coaches. So we know that a lot of the successful failure in a coaching relationship is how well you click together and, you know, how much you like each other, to be perfectly Frank is a real factor in how successful your coaching partnership will be.
And I think we really clicked from day one and that just got cemented by this shared experience we had of motherhood that doesn't, that hasn't looked like most people's experience. And that's the truth. You know, our experience of motherhood has looked profoundly different to most people's and we really bonded over that joint experience. And I can still remember that at the time you were hoping to interview.
some people for the book and then subsequently for the program. And that was a really transformational for me, to be quite honest, to have someone say, do you know what, do you really like to hear your story? And that opened a bit of a floodgate for me because I had never really told the story of how I felt about parenting James. So for anyone who's listening, who doesn't already know.
Kris Burbank (04:41.578)
Mmm.
Kris Burbank (04:55.863)
Hmm.
Gill Moakes (04:58.415)
my son James, who's 27, is severely autistic. So he is mostly nonverbal, you know, he has echolayic speech. He's the absolute love of my life and also the bane of my life at the same time. And yeah, we really bonded over that joint experience, didn't we? And that formed quite a,
beautiful friendship between us really that goes way beyond any kind of coaching relationship, I think.
Kris Burbank (05:35.402)
Yeah, it's interesting. I remember connecting, we talked a little bit about business and then we both sort of tiptoed around this, well, when do I introduce this personal thing that we have in common? And then once the door was open, it was like, oh, don't hold back. And we talked, and I think what's interesting is, right? You have these things in common as a parent.
Gill Moakes (05:56.495)
Yeah!
Kris Burbank (06:01.726)
like in terms of what you go through with your child, but then you also have these things in common about like what you've gone through. Like what's my identity? What do I want for my life? What do I want? What do I hope for, you know, the other relationships that I have besides the relationship with my child? And I think witnessing that in you and seeing sort of how I responded in that situation gave me hope that like, oh, wow.
There are people out there for whom this course and this book could really make an impact. So it sort of, it helped me personally, but it also solidified my desire professionally to like put this stuff out there.
Gill Moakes (06:43.011)
Oh, I love that you say that because I'm going to be honest with you. So the name of the book and the program, the course that Chris has put together is embracing another normal. And Chris, honestly, when you first started telling me about the course, my overwhelming feeling was I would have given anything for that to have existed when I was bringing up James. Because something I really
remember so vividly is not having any kind of image of what comes next. There was like, I don't know if this is the same in the States, but over here, there's a ton of provision for small children with autism. And so there was loads lots of support when James was a toddler. And when he first started school, there was a, you know, it was pretty much a lot of support. But there was
I didn't know what his teenagers or his adult life were going to look like. And I, more than that, I didn't know where to go to ask. I didn't have that kind of network around me, which I know forms part of the, the course that you've put together is around, you know, how to build this network and how to, how to find the help you need, how to ask for it, how to.
recognize it, how to focus on the other relationships, like you just said, that was a mind blowing one for me as well, because as a parent of a child with special needs, it's not just about the child. And I think sometimes for other people looking in, it's all about the child, you know, it's, you lose your identity as a woman, as a wife, as a girlfriend, as a sister, as a mother, to other children.
and it all becomes about your child with special needs. But the reality of life is that can't happen when you're in a family unit, you know, and you want to nurture other relationships. So that was huge for me when you were explaining to me that that's part of what you wanted to get across with this course is that, that focus on parents or caregivers to look after themselves and to...
Gill Moakes (09:08.083)
And to have that hope and optimism as well, that it's okay to embrace. Lena, can you just pause? Cause I'm fucking rambling now. I don't even know what I'm talking about.
Honestly, this is where leaners, they're having hysterics.
Kris Burbank (09:23.789)
It's okay to curse.
Gill Moakes (09:27.871)
Right, Lena, try and find a place to break that off because I do realise that I was rambling horrifically there. I'm going back in.
Gill Moakes (09:42.435)
So, Chris, can you tell me a little bit about why I understand about how, you know, during COVID you went back and you retrained as this coach and then you had this realization that this applies to parents. This is something that will help parents. What was it that
gave you the drive to take your own experience and to be as visible as you are now in terms of the details of your life with Andrew, the um and your other kids and John and then the also the desire to put that out there in a book and then to build a course.
It's such a commitment. Where did that drive come from?
Kris Burbank (10:44.786)
I don't know, but I do, I wish I had a great answer for that. I do know that during the pandemic, all of our kids came home. So, and we had just moved into a small home that was perfectly sized for my husband and me as empty nesters. And I'm really proud because we all did great. We...
Gill Moakes (10:47.369)
Hehehe
Gill Moakes (11:04.763)
Oh my god.
Gill Moakes (11:11.399)
You didn't kill each other. Go you. Yup. Thanks for watching.
Kris Burbank (11:11.97)
Thankfully all, we all stayed healthy, but it was hard and people got sad and people got depressed. And I remember my son, Andrew, who has these severe disabilities, but who had made a transition to be living on his own with direct care supports away from his family. And I remember coming in one day and he was so sad and we started talking and I said, you know, let's make a list.
let's make a list of all the people in our lives that we would never have met if you hadn't had this disability. And the list was long, and the list was filled with like amazing people, some of whom are like family now. It got me thinking about how there are a lot of people who don't have a long list like that. And when I started to kind of just
Gill Moakes (12:05.579)
Bye.
Kris Burbank (12:09.23)
take an inventory of the things I'd learned from these people, I was kind of blown away. And in my coaching, where I'm working with parents, I have had clients who have really struggled with loneliness and isolation. They have not either had the connections, perhaps they haven't lived in a part of the world where there's a density of population.
Gill Moakes (12:33.431)
Thanks for watching!
Kris Burbank (12:34.014)
And so they are very isolated and they don't have access to some of the wisdom that we've really benefited from. And so when I was approached to co-write this book, I said, wow, I can write about my own experience, but what I'd really like to do is to collect the experiences of other people. And I think that started to drive me, that if I am in a position where I am being offered the chance to share this wisdom.
Gill Moakes (12:57.482)
Yeah.
Kris Burbank (13:03.338)
much of which is not my own, right? It comes from other people, then who am I to not do it? You know, there's that expression, if not you, then who, if not now, then when? Like, I kind of just said, okay, this is scary, but I'll do it.
Gill Moakes (13:15.418)
Mmm.
Gill Moakes (13:21.863)
was scary for you, right? I mean, I think it's important for people to hear that. Because sometimes I think, particularly when people are so purpose led, you know, I mean, this is the epitome of a purpose led business, you know, you coach parents who, I mean, it must be the most incredibly satisfying.
service that you give people with your coaching is amazing. And creating the book and the course is very purpose led. But that doesn't mean it isn't scary. It isn't scary. And it doesn't mean that you're not, you don't still have all of the same insecurities around whether you can make it work, whether you can do it or not, does it?
Kris Burbank (14:11.306)
Yeah, I'm gonna quote a podcast that shall remain nameless, but it's an amazing podcast host that you know very, very well. And what I heard on this podcast was that judgment is either invited or irrelevant. And I think for the, I'm gonna say it again.
Gill Moakes (14:23.031)
I'm sorry.
Gill Moakes (14:32.567)
Ugh! What genius said that? What genius said that Chris?
Kris Burbank (14:39.49)
So if we're talking, right? If we're talking about being scared, what was I scared of? And I was scared of somebody saying, well, who is she to say that? And so what I said was, well, who am I? I am a parent who has gone through the trenches like so many parents, but I'm also a parent now who has
Gill Moakes (14:46.282)
Yeah.
Gill Moakes (14:51.595)
That's right.
Kris Burbank (15:08.734)
not just the life experience, but now also the training, the coaches training and the experience working with people as a coach, which is like a breathtaking experience, right? And I'm somebody who has a desire to teach but also to help people teach themselves, which I think is really important. And I'm somebody who, it is, it's because,
Gill Moakes (15:21.431)
Absolutely.
Gill Moakes (15:31.795)
Mm. That's really important to you actually, isn't it? Yeah.
Kris Burbank (15:39.454)
I learn every day. Now I'm gonna get emotional. I learn every day from my kids, my family members, other people in my life who don't even know they're teaching me. And so I thought to myself, if I could do that for even just one or two people, then who am I to not do it? I don't know what's gonna touch somebody. People touch me.
Gill Moakes (15:45.492)
Uh...
Gill Moakes (15:54.166)
Yeah.
Gill Moakes (16:04.051)
What a shift! What a shift to be able to make, to go from what if someone judges me and says who is she to do that, to flip that paradigm and say actually who am I not to do this? Who do I think I am to withhold this from people I know it can help? What a huge shift!
Um, and thank goodness, thank goodness. The other thing as well, I think that you have that not everyone has is this network that you have so intentionally built throughout Andrew's life. You know, I love that exercise that you did with him during the pandemic of listing all the people that wouldn't be in your life, because I think this is an area where Andrew, you know, has, I'm sure would, would agree that he's benefited from.
your networking ability of building this network around you as a family unit of medical staff, of teachers, of caregivers, of, you know, all of the people that have come to be your network and who when you came to create the course, what I found really interesting was the generosity that the people you approached
showed you in terms of sharing their time and giving interviews with you, which I just think is absolutely testament to who you are as a woman and as a mother. I think, you know, not many people would be able to raise their hand and say, listen, I've had this idea, I'm going to, I'm going to create this resource. It's not going to all come from me. I'm going to bring all
you people together and I want to tap into all your expertise and then stitch it together in this incredible learn fest. I don't think many women could pull that off.
Kris Burbank (18:05.654)
Well, you know, well, I think many women probably they might be able to, but maybe they're afraid to try. And I think for me, that was the big thing. You know, I read something about some research that was done recently about asking for help. And it's always the people who need the help. We're really, I think, concerned about somebody declining a request.
And most of the people out there that were interviewed for this piece of research, they were like, yeah, I'm happy to help. I love helping. So it's us, we're self-editing. And I never went, I never made like a conscious effort to build a network, but I think when you approach things, and I have just always approached life and relationships of like, oh, I know we're gonna teach each other, I know I'm gonna learn from these people. Then all of a sudden you find a situation where you're like, oh my gosh, well, if you guys will help me.
and let's just talk like we talk all the time anyway. I'm just going to record it, right? Then I can take that help. And people were quite vulnerable in these conversations. I mean, you remember when we started, you start talking about your kids and your life as a parent. And I think I even asked if you could go back and tell your younger self something. Wow, it's amazing what people shared. And then.
Gill Moakes (19:27.944)
Oh, it was a really rich, deep experience for me to have that interview with you for the program. And it was really important to me to keep in mind that what I said earlier, which was that this is the resource I wished I'd had. I wished I'd had something where I could see an example of
the future and what my future could look like, you know, because there were times in the darkest times with James, if someone had said to me at some point, you'll be running a really successful coaching business, and you'll have a podcast and now two podcasts and, you know, I would have just been like, yeah, okay, in another lifetime, because my world was absolutely wrapped up with James. And I think
one of the most inspiring things that you have done with this program is, is to give, it is a beacon of hope as well for parents who are in the weeds of going through it. So I think.
Yeah, sorry.
Kris Burbank (20:36.37)
We, I don't mean to interrupt you. The other night, my husband and I decided to watch some home movies. Honestly, we'd watched a very sad film on TV. And I said, I can't go to bed. I need something uplifting. Can we just throw on like some old home movies? It was Easter. We had three kids under the age of five. And the middle one, my son, Andrew, was in a full body cast.
And we, with his legs in, like from his ankles up to his chest, he had this special orthopedic surgery, which a lot of young people, young children with cerebral palsy have. And he was literally, my husband said, he looks like a Y, he was in this body cast. And we were doing an Easter egg hunt in the front yard with all these kids and carrying him around in this. And...
Gill Moakes (21:26.78)
Oh!
Kris Burbank (21:31.166)
Of course, I said to my husband, why are we watching this? I want it to be uplifted. And my husband started to laugh. I said, it was so hard, John, it was so hard. And we started laughing and we said, yeah, and you don't even remember it. You don't even realize, like now you look back and it's 20 years later and you don't even remember how hard it was. And I...
Gill Moakes (21:54.717)
Right.
Kris Burbank (21:56.982)
That's what I was thinking of as you were talking about, I wish I'd had, I wish I'd, because when you're in the midst of it, you just think this is my normal and you don't realize how hard it is and how stressed out you are and how challenging compared to so many other people around you, you just do it because that's what you're supposed to be doing. And so I am, you know, I'm delighted that we are gonna be able to, you know,
Gill Moakes (22:06.455)
You do?
Gill Moakes (22:19.559)
Absolutely.
Kris Burbank (22:26.69)
give this to people and have them have the reassurance, the support, the encouragement, the hope that like, yeah, you're gonna be able to laugh at things. You're gonna be able to get through this. It's gonna be okay.
Gill Moakes (22:40.315)
And you're so right, like at the time, if someone's, you know, if someone told me back then that one day it will be different, I think I would have found it hard to believe it. But having this resource of hearing from the horse's mouth and people actually describing what their experience was and where they are now, you know, I...
now have the most beautiful relationship with my son, I have him home every other weekend, it's you know, and he wouldn't want it to be different than that. And I wouldn't, you know, one of the big things for me when James was really small was I can't imagine ever being able to let someone else take care of him. You know, that was huge for me. And then of course, there came a time when I actually couldn't imagine being able to carry on keep taking care of him. So that
Kris Burbank (23:22.382)
Mm.
Kris Burbank (23:31.63)
Sure, sure.
Gill Moakes (23:31.795)
was a switcheroo and you know, both of those times were hard, both had their own challenges.
Kris Burbank (23:39.667)
We have, in just the US, we have 5 million people with intellectual and developmental disabilities who are being cared by their parents. And their parents are aging. And so when you talk about, I couldn't imagine a time, part of what happens is that parents become so entrenched in the day to day that they don't think about the fact that in a flash their son is going to be 25. He's going to be 6 foot 2.
Gill Moakes (23:49.947)
Yeah. Yes.
Gill Moakes (24:00.917)
Mm.
Kris Burbank (24:08.258)
their daughter is gonna need two people to lift her. So part of what this course does is in addition to offering hope and encouragement and support, it also, I think, tries to get parents to think ahead a little bit and to not be so afraid and to know that they can take a couple of steps in that direction and every step is gonna help them when they get to where you and I are.
Gill Moakes (24:12.808)
Yeah.
Kris Burbank (24:38.358)
which is parents of adults, which is a very different situation than parents of young kids with disabilities.
Gill Moakes (24:38.571)
Mm.
Gill Moakes (24:46.663)
Yeah, it really is. It absolutely is. It has its own challenges sometimes. And I think one of the things I love about and this is goes for your book and for the programme as well for the course as well, is that this is not a saccharine. You know, everything's fine. We're just gonna put a big smile on our faces and everything will be fine. You know, it's not that kind of thing at all.
Kris Burbank (25:05.454)
Cheers.
Gill Moakes (25:15.107)
it's absolutely optimistic, it's absolutely full of hope and reassurance and guidance, but it isn't a kind of like, it's not joy washing. Which I think I may have just made up that word, don't know that, or is that already a thing? I like it too. We'll keep that. Yeah, yeah. But I think that was important to you, wasn't it? To have the program be very real.
Kris Burbank (25:32.462)
I like it. Ah, I don't know, I like it.
Kris Burbank (25:41.963)
Yeah.
Kris Burbank (25:46.662)
Yes, and I will tell you that when I went through my coaches training, I became obsessed with this concept of polarities, where we go through life and we often see things as an either or, as a black and a white, as I'm going to take care of my kid and focus on my kid, or I'm going to take time for myself, would be an example. I'm going to do everything myself, or I'm going to delegate.
What we know is that in most cases, it's a blend of the two, right? And the whole thing about polarities is you gotta figure out how to blend them and what does that braiding of the two look like? And for me, I really wanted the book to be a braiding of the two. I want people to know that, you know, I am a better person because of my kid, all my kids. But I also want them to know, as you said before,
It's still hard. It didn't, it's not like everything became easy. I figured it out and it all became, I think we talk about this is not making things easy. It's just making them less hard, right? It's a resource to make it less hard.
Gill Moakes (26:56.983)
Oh, that's a great yes. It's not about making things easy. It's about making them less hard. And that's what I really love about I love that about you as a person. And I love it. It's definitely about your work is that you're so honest and truthful. And I think when I think back to when we started working together, and there were a lot of things that came up for you around.
This being scared to go all in, being scared to put everything out there. I think that was definitely something that you wrestled with at the beginning. And we know why we alluded to it earlier. Some of it was around this fear of, of judgment or of perhaps, um, a little imposter syndrome of, am I trying to be something I'm not by saying, Hey, I'm good, I'm going to be an author. I'm going to be a coach. I'm going to have.
host a program that's going to change lives. That felt very big to you, didn't it?
Kris Burbank (28:00.554)
Yeah, and you know, it still feels big, right? I mean, it still feels big. But I also think, you know, like sometimes I think we're afraid to try because if we try and we fail, well then, you know, what are we? And you know what? If I write this book and nobody buys it, then I'm just somebody that shared stories and some strategies and it's...
Gill Moakes (28:06.56)
Mm-hmm.
Gill Moakes (28:17.727)
Yeah.
Kris Burbank (28:29.602)
bound to help one person. It already, I mean, the thing for me that's been really rewarding, right? Yeah, it's been really, really rewarding. And the thing I didn't expect that I really love is that I knew, right? I knew a lot of these stories because I had heard them already from people I knew. So I knew that they were gonna be impactful because these people are impactful. They've impacted my life. But...
Gill Moakes (28:33.531)
I think you already know that it's helped more than one person. Right. Yeah.
Gill Moakes (28:48.599)
Mm-hmm.
Gill Moakes (28:52.256)
Mm.
Kris Burbank (28:58.226)
What I didn't realize is that parents of kids without disabilities were gonna write to me and say, Chris, so much of what you guys wrote about in this book, it's applicable to parents of all kids or grandparents. Or the other day I had a doctor say to me, I wish that I had this book when I was in the beginning of my medical training because it really helps explain the families that I'm working with. So, you know.
Gill Moakes (29:09.175)
Hmm?
Gill Moakes (29:18.795)
Wow.
Gill Moakes (29:23.783)
Yeah. Teachers as well. I think it's almost required reading, I think, to get an insight into families. Yeah.
Kris Burbank (29:27.625)
Exactly.
Kris Burbank (29:35.756)
Yeah.
Gill Moakes (29:37.467)
And how did it... so I suppose... sorry Lena I'm really like... bluh bluh. Notice how I always have to go like this to talk to Lena because obviously if I talk like that she can't hear me. She's literally... hello Lena. I do feel sorry for her sometimes when she's editing she must be thinking, Jill just get on with it. I'm coming back in the room any minute I promise.
Kris Burbank (29:51.356)
She's sitting right there, yeah.
Gill Moakes (30:08.532)
I just want to figure out where I'm going.
Kris Burbank (30:11.406)
Can I ask you a question?
Gill Moakes (30:13.243)
Oh yeah. Oh, let's go in there. You come in with that.
Kris Burbank (30:18.526)
So Jill, you talked about our conversation when I interviewed you for the course, and you said that it brought up things for you. Can you speak to that at all? Do you, as somebody who maybe hadn't fully embraced another normal in some way, what was that?
Gill Moakes (30:26.881)
Mmm.
Gill Moakes (30:39.511)
God, what a good question. I'm gonna give you a very, very honest answer to this.
Part of what it brought up for me was a little bit of sadness. And the sadness was that I didn't have this available for me. And it made me realize, so for example, the building a network around you, I really didn't do that.
I didn't, I wasn't one of the mums at the school who were in this like group, you know, I always worked for a start. I worked as well as, I mean, James, so every time, every minute James was at school, I was working, you know, I wasn't at home. And, you know, there were certainly some of the mums, so James went to a special needs school. So all of the mums, you know, would be in a group and, and often would meet up.
during school time and I never was really part of that group. I didn't have that network of other moms. I had a couple of fellow special needs moms that I was kind of friendly with, but I wasn't really in that group. I didn't have this big network around me. And I certainly didn't, I don't think I was good at asking for what I needed back then.
Kris Burbank (32:04.523)
Mm.
Gill Moakes (32:04.539)
I think I got much better at it as James got older. And certainly as he turned into adulthood and I was fighting for where I wanted him to live, I was beyond good at asking for what I wanted. But I think when he was first diagnosed as a small child, I don't think I was. So again, looking at the course now and the book and realizing, because that was pre-internet as well, when James was little.
Kris Burbank (32:30.188)
Yeah.
Gill Moakes (32:31.495)
And realizing how little resource we had back then and how little, how small the window was that I had on the wider world of disability and being a parent of a special needs child, it was quite isolating. So this mixture of sadness for myself and absolute joy.
for other mothers who are now coming up through that same experience, that there is help for them, there is more available. And I just think that what makes embracing another normal so different is the realness of it, because it is real interviews with real people who've been through real experiences. There is nothing, this isn't you.
kind of lecturing around some theoretical ideas that you have around best practice or something like that, you know, just not that at all. It's so grounded. It's so it's practical, but it's also Sorry, Lena.
It's practical, but it's also very inspiring and uplifting at the same time. And I think that's what parents who are in that, in the weeds of raising a child with special needs, that's what they need. They have to have the evidence that things are going to one, get better or get different because sometimes that's what happens is that things, things get different.
And, and that's okay, you know, and that there is hope and that there is support. Uh, all of those things. I'm just so happy that does exist now for other people. And I think it's amazing that you've brought that to life.
Kris Burbank (34:30.026)
You know, it's, I was talking.
Kris Burbank (34:34.91)
I was talking to a family last week and their son is about 10 years younger than my son. And he's struggling with things. And I said, I'm not here to tell you that this struggle will not continue. All I'm gonna tell you is that when I look at my kid at his age now, and I think 10 years ago, what I have predicted that he was going to be where he is.
Gill Moakes (34:45.26)
Mm.
Gill Moakes (34:51.339)
Right.
Kris Burbank (35:02.338)
that he was gonna be the kind of person that he is, that we were gonna have the kind of relationship. It's very hard to plan for a future when you have no sense. And people will say, well, we never really know what the future is gonna be or what our kids, but let's be clear, major disabilities, they make it more complicated to predict. They just do. Yeah.
Gill Moakes (35:24.063)
Yeah, they do. They absolutely do. Yeah, because so much is out of our control.
Kris Burbank (35:29.246)
And the other thing I was gonna say.
Kris Burbank (35:34.614)
Yeah. And the other thing I was gonna say, Jill, when you speak to parents and yourself not really having that network, and I think as parents, we develop skills to advocate and push for what our kids need. But we also think that if I'm a good parent, I don't maybe need some of these other things.
Gill Moakes (35:55.122)
Mm-hmm.
Kris Burbank (36:02.758)
And what I heard time and time again in these interviews and what people will see in the course is, no, no. You're only human. You need everything that somebody else might need. And the fact that you have additional responsibilities for your child does not preclude you from wanting to get those needs fulfilled. Doesn't make you better to just push those needs aside.
Gill Moakes (36:26.28)
Mmm.
Gill Moakes (36:32.823)
That's such a good point. And I think it is it. You're absolutely right. I and I think it's like I was saying earlier, it does become all about your child for a long time. And a reminder that it doesn't have to be that way because it doesn't actually doesn't have to be that way. And that I think is a very refreshing message that comes across loud and clear in what you do and what you speak to and it doesn't dilute the care.
or the love that you have for your child. In fact, if anything for me, it deepens it because you have more capacity. Really important.
Kris Burbank (37:07.374)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Yeah, there's, you know, we are complicated beings, us humans, and you know, our role as parents is one of many roles. And you know, you talked before about needing to work all the time. I was talking to a father the other day, it was four o'clock in the morning his time. I said, do you always start your day at four? He said, yeah, because when my kid wakes up,
Gill Moakes (37:16.652)
Yeah.
Gill Moakes (37:27.31)
Hmm?
Kris Burbank (37:35.69)
It's all over. So I get my best work done between four and seven. Like this is the world people live in. And I think what we have to be able to, you know, yeah, we have to be able to say, yes, this is the world I live in and there's a way for me to prosper and thrive in this world despite the fact that it's hard. And part of the way I do that is to access resources and understand maybe what other people have been through and learn from them.
Gill Moakes (37:42.411)
That's the reality.
Gill Moakes (37:57.791)
Mm.
Kris Burbank (38:05.246)
and apply whatever I learn as much as I can to my own life.
Gill Moakes (38:05.577)
Mm.
Gill Moakes (38:08.999)
Absolutely. I'm interested. I know that one person that you interviewed for the programme was Andrew. What was that like?
Kris Burbank (38:21.358)
Um, well, I'll start by saying, um, when you were talking before about the, the program having parents in it, one of the things I love the most about this program is that it has the voices of self advocates in it. Um, and they, they speak, uh, they're, they were the best and most enjoyable conversations because most of them were incredibly honest and the
Gill Moakes (38:37.083)
Yes, you're so right. That is amazing.
Gill Moakes (38:43.711)
Mm-hmm.
Kris Burbank (38:47.63)
question I loved was, well, what did your parents do that drove you crazy? Um, and you know, I got some really good answers. Andrew, um, Andrew is a wise old soul sometimes. Uh, and we talk a lot in my family. So the biggest thing for him was that he was, you know, being recorded. Um, he's also because of his cerebral palsy, his delivery, you know, can be kind of slow. Um, and so.
Gill Moakes (38:52.768)
UGH! I love it.
Gill Moakes (39:03.6)
Yeah.
Kris Burbank (39:17.138)
I actually, you know, I tell people in the course, you can moderate the speed of the interviews. And at one point, Andrew is really good when you put him on like, you know, triple speed. But he, it was really fun. It was really enjoyable to hear his take on things, his perspective. I think one of the things I said is if I had a hundred parents in a room, what would you want to be able to tell them? And these young people, they were very honest and candid.
Gill Moakes (39:22.847)
Ha ha ha!
Gill Moakes (39:42.825)
Oh.
Gill Moakes (39:46.251)
Tell us, can you share with us maybe one or two of the answers?
Kris Burbank (39:50.262)
Sure. So one of my favorites is something that a young woman, Sarah, said, where she talked about her parents and her parents always wanting what was best for her and lots of encouragement to improve her physical abilities. But she's in her early 30s now. And she said, I don't wanna, you know, I wanna use my wheelchair more. That was hard for my parents. My parents wanted me to walk more.
And it was hard for us to even have conversations around how much more I was willing to try. And she's much more eloquent than I am, but she was really candid about parents, recommending to parents that they think about their dreams and also have consideration for their children's dreams. And obviously this depends greatly on your child's ability to express him or herself.
Gill Moakes (40:18.775)
Wow.
Gill Moakes (40:42.871)
Gosh.
Kris Burbank (40:47.554)
their intellectual ability to have goals and dreams. But I think, again, this is one of those situations where this applies to everyone, right? I shouldn't have my dreams for my husband that are not his dreams, and dreams for my other kids, right? And so if you're the parent of somebody, it's so easy.
Gill Moakes (40:50.035)
Of course, yeah.
Gill Moakes (40:57.678)
Mm.
Gill Moakes (41:00.935)
Absolutely, yep, you're right.
I have a habit of doing that as well. I have a really bad and I do it today, my partner and I'm and I definitely for James, it I project onto James so much around what he will like or he won't like that or he will like that and you know and I have to remind myself all the time. I am I must not limit his experience of life based on what I think he will or won't like you know he
He can try things, he can find out if he does or doesn't like things. Oh, apart from one time when the care homes asked whether I thought James would like a bungee jump.
Gill Moakes (41:44.455)
Are you mad? We can act and I think afterwards I realized I think they were joking but I'm still not 100% sure they were joking and I just had this vision of them taking James up in an airplane and like pushing him out or something or on the top of a bridge and dropping him off the bridge on a bungee. I feel I think that's a bit harsh I'm not sure not sure he can articulate not sure he's gonna know what's coming.
Kris Burbank (41:58.851)
Hehehe
Kris Burbank (42:10.264)
Well, you told me, you told me in one of our first conversations how hard it was to learn that your feelings are not your child's feelings. And I shared that, I shared that this morning in a conversation with somebody who was struggling with a typical child, right?
Gill Moakes (42:19.195)
Oh my gosh, so hard.
Really.
Kris Burbank (42:28.187)
that your feelings, what you're afraid of, what you want for them, how you react, that's not necessarily how they're feeling.
Gill Moakes (42:35.615)
I remember when James first went into care, into residential care, I can remember just torturing myself with this image of James laying in bed crying, not knowing where I was and missing me and missing home. And I had to really think about that afterwards and realize that actually, you know what? James is probably laying there thinking, I wonder, like, when am I getting my breakfast?
That will be his main concern. It's not going to be anything about missing me. It will be food related. Yeah, it's a huge lesson. Definitely.
Kris Burbank (43:12.606)
Yeah. Yeah, it's, you know, we, one of the things I love about life is that it's a series of phases. And just when, just when you think you've got it figured out, you realize, oh, I've moved into the next phase. And...
Gill Moakes (43:23.752)
Yeah.
Gill Moakes (43:28.899)
Oh my goodness, that is so true. It's true for everyone, but I think actually for parents of kids with special needs, it's very markedly true. Like it's one phase of particular set of challenges gets replaced by another particular set of challenges. And sometimes they're easier and sometimes they're not. But there is movement. There is movement through life. Nothing holds back time.
Kris Burbank (43:59.434)
Well, I...
Gill Moakes (43:59.627)
And I think that we can now share with parents that, yeah, God, we can look back now and just be so grateful at the relationship we have with our kids now. And not everyone's experience is the same as ours either. And I'm really mindful of that too. But I think what's priceless about what you've created, Chris, with Another Normal is the hope and the optimism that it brings.
Kris Burbank (44:27.338)
Well, thank you. I hope so.
Gill Moakes (44:30.839)
I know so. So if someone is listening, and they either have a child themselves and are interested in going through this program that you've created, or perhaps they know someone who might be interested, or they potentially have connections where it could be useful to be introduced into an education environment or a health environment, something like that. I'm just thinking that, you know,
I'm really, really keen for this to get as far and wide as possible, just for the reasons I've already said that I know how much this is going to help people. So I really want this to go far and wide. But if someone is interested in going through the program, how can they do that? What's the next step?
Kris Burbank (45:20.11)
It's very easy. I have a website, which is my name, chrisburbank.com. And they can go to the website. And in the header, there's an opportunity to learn with Chris. And there's all kinds of information about the course, and the book, and how to contact me. I'm like you, Jill. I love that this is now available for parents. And I, at the same time, really hope that other entities, organizations, even employers
will have an interest in making this available to parents through their own employee networks and human resource benefits departments. Parents experience things at home and it impacts how they show up at work, right? All caregivers. And the sooner that we realize that as a society and we support them in different ways.
Gill Moakes (45:49.12)
Yeah.
Gill Moakes (46:04.671)
Mm-hmm. Mm.
Kris Burbank (46:13.899)
the more we're going to be able to leverage what they can contribute to the organizations that they're a part of, let alone make their family lives happier.
Gill Moakes (46:19.155)
Yeah, absolutely right. Absolutely right. And this is something that I think organizations are getting better at recognizing that they need to create a culture of inclusivity and a culture where no matter what challenges people are facing outside of the workplace, they are welcomed into the workplace and things are made as easy for them as they possibly can. So I think this is a brilliant resource for organizations to offer.
Kris Burbank (46:30.39)
Yes.
Gill Moakes (46:49.591)
So I'm going to put links in the show notes and where else can people connect with you, Chris? Is it, I think you're on Facebook, I believe. So I'll put all of the links in the show notes for sure.
Kris Burbank (46:59.338)
Yes, I have a Facebook. And I also have a free newsletter that I send out called Another Normal. And people can sign up on the website for that as well.
Gill Moakes (47:09.962)
Yes.
Oh, excellent. I will definitely put the link in because that is a really amazing resource. So this is something that Chris puts a lot of work into. I know that and it's an incredible resource for parents. I think there are a lot of parents out there that will be lost without coming as you're like their source of reliable information. So I will definitely pop that.
Kris Burbank (47:34.978)
Well, I love it. The newsletter highlights all kinds of information on things to help young people grow and thrive. And so it's for parents, but it's also, it's everything from travel to sexuality to housing and employment. And it's also, again, about how to take care of yourself and to ask yourself the kinds of questions that lead you to build a full life as a parent, but also as a person.
Gill Moakes (47:38.976)
Yeah.
Gill Moakes (48:02.595)
And you have absolutely done that. And I think I have too. And that is what's possible for parents. It is possible for us to have full lives, full really satisfying lives and great relationships with our kids, whatever that other normal looks like for us. Chris, thank you so much. Yes, work in progress for sure. Thank you for coming on the show and I hope you'll come back again.
Kris Burbank (48:21.31)
Yeah, work's in progress. Thank you, Jill. Thank you.
Gill Moakes (48:31.487)
because I could talk about with you about this topic all day, you know that. But I do think, you know, it is something that's close to both our hearts. And, you know, if there's any way I can get this message out a bit further, a little bit wider each time, I want to do that. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much.
Kris Burbank (48:32.511)
Love, Tim.
Kris Burbank (48:53.442)
Thank you.
Gill Moakes (48:55.04)
Bye for now.
