Gill Moakes (00:01.698)
Hey Christine, welcome to Heads Together. Thank you so much for joining me.
Christine Shehy (00:07.608)
Thank you, Jill. It's lovely to be here.
Gill Moakes (00:10.488)
This is very exciting because you're my first person, real life person that I've met from my new sub stack journey. So this is really awesome.
Christine Shehy (00:22.722)
and you were my very first unknown sub stack subscriber. So that's very exciting for me as well. I was just tentatively dipping my toes in and lovely Jill was there to greet me, which was so nice. So thank you for that.
Gill Moakes (00:27.978)
Yah -hah!
Gill Moakes (00:35.158)
You're so welcome. I really love it as a platform. I really do enjoy being on there. It's not like the other social media platforms. Also, my clients who are at the moment laughing as they listen to this, because they all take bets at the moment as to how long I'm going to go in a session or in, we have a mastermind group as well, where we meet all together. So all my private clients meet together on a Monday and they now laugh and take bets at how long before I mentioned Substack.
just because I am slightly obsessed with it at the moment. So right now they're probably laughing at this episode. Like she had to go straight in there with the substats.
Christine Shehy (01:14.574)
pleased to entertain everybody. And I love it too. It feels like a lovely place, lovely, thoughtful place to be at the moment.
Gill Moakes (01:15.182)
Exactly.
Gill Moakes (01:23.158)
It really does. And I am, I'm just selfishly and unselfishly very happy to have you with me today, because unselfishly you are, I just enjoyed our conversation so much that we had. And I think the work you do with women who are bringing their books to the world, their nonfiction books, which is your area of expertise. I think that work is so important and
What was interesting for me, and this is now the slightly selfishly part, was that when we were talking, I suddenly got really clear on why my book is not in the world yet. And it's because I don't have the support that I need yet. And it's as simple as that. really just having that conversation with you and you were kind of so interested in the topic and talking about it, it really reignited.
something in me and made me realize, you know what, I've just been dabbling around with the book and it's, you know, I've dipped in, I've dipped out, I've dipped in, I've dipped out, but I've never really grabbed it by the horns and said, right, I'm going to make this happen. Until I started talking to you.
Christine Shehy (02:41.216)
Well, that is lovely to hear. You know, I think you're not alone in that. And I often say that I think there's a lot of mythology around writing a book. It's the sort of, I don't know, this revered goal that a lot of us have, but it feels big, it feels daunting. There's a little bit of who am I that goes along with it. And so it's really easy for those little fragile writers dreams to get squashed or for us to get too busy or there's other priorities.
and we put it aside. So I do believe it's one of those things, like really many of the arts where support is really an incredible help to just actually pushing through and making that dream happen.
Gill Moakes (03:23.17)
Yeah, that's a really good point as well is that it feels really fragile. Also, it feels so important. And I don't know, I feel like I've maybe been... It's like it has to be the book. And I don't know if any listeners can relate to this. I think...
Christine Shehy (03:32.622)
you
Gill Moakes (03:45.28)
It's almost like I'm, I obsess over getting it right, picking the exact right topic, the exact right title, the exact right tagline, subtitle, the exact right format and chapters and everything becomes so important that it paralyzes me, I think. And so I've just kept playing with it around the edges, I guess.
Christine Shehy (04:12.212)
It's almost like we're treating it like a magnum opus, like it's got to be the book that Jill will write rather than tackling one part of the journey that you're on because it is a journey. What you write now will be different from what you might have written five years ago, or maybe in five years time because you're learning. So, and evolving and your work is evolving. So I think if we can break it down to something much smaller, much more focused that helps to make it a bit more doable.
Gill Moakes (04:28.216)
you
Christine Shehy (04:41.548)
But also I often advise clients to think of it like, like an invitation to explore a topic with you. So you're not positioning yourself as the guru or the expert in a particular area. It's like, this is something I'm really interested in. This is something I know about. This is something I share with my clients and I want to explore. So join me in that journey and share those stories, share that learning as you go, rather than feeling like you've got to know it all or get it right as such, because there is no.
Right, your work will evolve.
Gill Moakes (05:10.41)
I really love that. Yeah, yeah, I love that. So when you work with clients, can you tell us a little bit about, you know, how you work with with clients and the kind of work you do just as a precursor? Because I know that you've really kindly said that in this episode, we can actually go into a bit of the specifics around the book that I want to write and just talk about that a little bit more, which and just to your point just now, I love to invite the listeners into
this journey. I'm really happy for everyone to be along for the ride with writing the book, you know, and I've been talking about it for so long now. they're probably, people listening are probably thinking what you mean you haven't actually written it yet. What the hell have you been doing woman? You've been talking about it for at least two years. But I don't think that's unusual. Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Shehy (05:52.542)
We are.
We thought it was already out there. Yeah. No, it's not unusual. It's not unusual. And there's a lot of factors that play into that. But maybe if I start by just explaining how I came to this work and then the way that it has evolved over time. So I was doing copywriting, brand stories, brand messaging, and I had written a couple of books of my own and clients kept asking me, help me. I want to write a book. I want to write a book. And I kept thinking, no.
Gill Moakes (06:10.67)
Mm.
Christine Shehy (06:26.146)
I couldn't think of a way to actually help them do it that would work as a coach partnership set up. And it seemed like a too big a task, I guess. And finally, in the lockdown years, a couple of clients really pushed, okay, I need help, this is the time I'm gonna write the book. So we did it together. And it was an amazing journey. And I learned so much from helping them do that. But then I thought, there's gotta be a better way. We've gotta be able to break this down because
They were coming to me with lots of work that they'd done, thousands and thousands of words, and we were having to pull it all apart and go back and put the book together again. So I then trained with a company called Author Accelerator in the United States. And the part of the process that I found that I loved is actually to start well before that, that the work is planned in the beginning so that we get the concept right. We get the...
Gill Moakes (07:03.458)
Mm.
Christine Shehy (07:22.19)
framework for the book, right? We understand the reader's journey from the beginning and we plan out what you're going to write so that you're not sort of writing a few pages and they're on one topic and you go down a rabbit hole and you lose your focus and then you get to the end and think, what is this? Which is what can happen if we just pants it as they say, so sit down and fly by the seat of your pants. Yeah.
Gill Moakes (07:39.17)
My hand is up. Yeah, yeah, I can totally relate to that.
Christine Shehy (07:45.43)
as many people can and I honestly think again that's part of that mythology of writing that you will sit down and the muse will strike and the words will just flow and we'll know what to say and actually we can end up going way off track and then you start to lose a bit of focus and faith in your idea I think and having that faith that understanding of what this book is, who it's for from the get -go is really helpful to keep you on track.
Gill Moakes (07:46.008)
Mm.
Christine Shehy (08:12.12)
to make sure the reader delivers on its promise to the reader so that they get what they think they're gonna get when they pick it up. And so that you have something that you know actually delivers a result for them as well. So yeah, so what I discovered was I love that beginning part.
Gill Moakes (08:26.03)
you know what? Sorry, sorry to interrupt, but I just had to say that just you saying that part, it made me feel calmer already. I don't know how to explain it. It's like just having someone to help make sense of the concept and to because
I think my overthinking happens when I'm when I feel like I'm alone with this idea and I don't even know if it makes sense so therefore I second guess everything that I want to put into the book and then I will quite often as I have done over the last two years rip everything up and start again and it's just so frustrating.
But that thought of being calm and, and, okay, let's make sure the book delivers on its promise. So just that, for example, of beginning, you know, from there and working back and just, it all makes me feel calm and, it makes it feel more doable. So I just had to say that you have a really good way of making it feel doable.
Christine Shehy (09:35.938)
Wow, that's wonderful to hear. And that's really what it's about is if, you know, if someone's going to spend time and money, but most importantly, time reading your book, reading your words, reading your ideas, then you've got to think about why they should invest their time in it, right? It's often when people, sometimes people will say, I'll say, why do want to write a book? because it's always been my dream. And that's wonderful. And it's not enough.
Gill Moakes (09:39.011)
Mm.
Gill Moakes (09:51.533)
Right.
Christine Shehy (10:01.398)
it's not enough for the reader, you've got to think about why should they invest their time in reading this book? And so that comes down to what's that promise? What is it that you're going to deliver for them in this book? What is the argument you're making or the thing you're going to teach them so that they close the book and go away? It's changed, transformed somehow. And you can think about it from, I imagine that a lot of your clients and listeners are already
Gill Moakes (10:24.706)
Mmm.
Christine Shehy (10:28.662)
working in a space where they're creating programs or they're creating a product for their own clients. And it's very similar. This is in a sense, a product. what is it that what's the need it's going to fulfill? And how is it going to deliver on that?
Gill Moakes (10:33.805)
right.
Gill Moakes (10:45.31)
And that will definitely land. think a lot of my clients absolutely are creating offers and programs and, you know, lot of my listeners and clients are coaches and consultants of some kind, working with their expertise. And so, you know, I think, I think I'd go as far as saying most of my clients have an ambition to write a book. A few of my clients have already published books.
and, but I would say most of them have that as an ambition. So I think this is very, this is going to really resonate with a lot of my listeners as something that is, it always seems to be in the future. I would love to bucket and what I think you do with, with people who's bringing it into the, no, it's doable now. It's doable now.
Christine Shehy (11:40.396)
Yeah. Yeah. And again, that can come back to feeling like it's got to encapsulate your whole body of work. But actually, it doesn't, it doesn't have to be your whole body of work, because we see that authors and coaches will write a book, and they will teach their particular philosophy, or their topic now. And then two years later, they've moved on to another variation or another version of their expertise, and they're sharing that idea. And so it doesn't have to be everything you've learned. In fact, that would most cases be
overwhelming. But if you have a particular take, particular angle, something that's really, that can really drive you crazy about your field that you want to share a different perspective, you really want to open people's eyes to this way of looking at it. That's enough. It doesn't have to be everything.
Gill Moakes (12:26.466)
Yeah, that's, and that's a relief, first of all, that is a relief, because I think that's been the problem for me, is like trying to pack in everything into, but almost like, because I'm a business coach, I almost felt like my book had to be, you know, how to launch, grow, scale, that...
the ultimate business, you know, and that's a huge topic that would be. And that's just so overwhelming. And however I was breaking it down, I wasn't quite getting there in terms of getting to what my philosophy is around it. And then obviously, think when you and I were talking and I was saying, you know, and I have this offer that I'm just finishing off at the moment, which is rewild your business. It's a virtual retreat. And you said, well, isn't that
Christine Shehy (12:50.018)
The definitive guide.
Christine Shehy (12:54.3)
Mm.
Gill Moakes (13:17.602)
book? And that was like...
Talk about plate hiding in plain sight because that is my philosophy for business What the hell how have I missed that?
Christine Shehy (13:23.662)
Mmm.
Christine Shehy (13:31.107)
Yeah, and because it's hiding in plain sight again, very common. And we also spoke about how that, to my mind, that is a very current topic in that I'm hearing everywhere people are frustrated with social media, they don't necessarily want to do all the things, all the strategies that the experts might say that you should do. They want to find a way to build a business that feels aligned, that feels comfortable, that feels sustainable in the sense that they can continue.
to do it and be consistent about it. And so this idea of actually peeling back the layers, stripping away the things that you don't need that aren't really either aligned with the way you want to do it or actually even generating the results. Sometimes we're showing up on a social media platform and it's really doing nothing for us, but we're still showing up there and putting our time and energy into that. Plugging away without really questioning it. So.
Gill Moakes (14:01.816)
Yeah.
Gill Moakes (14:23.48)
Plug it away. Yeah.
Gill Moakes (14:28.312)
Right?
Christine Shehy (14:28.834)
So it seems to me that that topic is very hot right now and that people want a different approach. And you've got the sitting right there, Jill. So how about we write the book.
Gill Moakes (14:39.118)
I mean, it's funny though, because as soon as we started talking about that, when we were chatting together, and what came clear to me was that that doesn't feel overwhelming. That book doesn't feel overwhelming. The topic doesn't feel too big. I can straight away see, you know, I'm beginning to see what the flow of the book would be and
It just feels so much like I say so much more doable. So I'm very grateful for that initial chat we had that brought me so much clarity. I know you, you specialize in nonfiction and that's your thing. What, kind of clients do you work with the most?
Christine Shehy (15:16.204)
Yeah.
Christine Shehy (15:30.158)
So a lot of my clients are coaches of some description and that runs from life coaches. I've had fitness coaches, business coaches. The fascinating thing I found about that is because obviously when I'm working with people intensely on their books, I'm very mindful of confidentiality and not, know, not crossover and ideas and things like that. There's never been crossover ideas despite working with a lot of coaches. Everyone has their own take on it. It's fascinating and really exciting.
Gill Moakes (15:55.158)
Yes. Yeah.
Christine Shehy (15:59.146)
So a lot of coaches and then subject matter experts. So I've worked with psychologists. I've worked with communications professionals, some people in design. So all kinds of things really, which is fascinating because it means I get to learn a lot of different things, which is one of my, I want to say love languages. It's certainly one of the things I enjoy is to learn and be exposed to other people's ideas and get excited about other people's ideas.
Gill Moakes (16:19.381)
Mmm.
Christine Shehy (16:28.97)
And just and it really is, I often describe it as a thought partnership, because we are holding their ideas up to the light, testing them seeing what what piece fits in what, and what order does that make sense? What's missing here? And you often can't see that yourself because you're so far in it. So it's not uncommon for the work we do around the book to unlock aha moments elsewhere in their business, and they might go and reshuffle a program or
Gill Moakes (16:48.408)
Yeah.
Christine Shehy (16:58.114)
come up with a new offer because that piece, just having someone to sit with your ideas and give you some feedback and test it can be so valuable in many ways.
Gill Moakes (17:03.031)
Mm.
Gill Moakes (17:07.744)
Absolutely. And with the process, suppose, I'm interested in your process for supporting people to write their book, because for you it's very much about getting the book written, isn't it, rather than the publishing side of things, which is something completely separate, I know. Can you kind of outline a little bit around what that...
process is or what that engagement looks like when you work with a client.
Christine Shehy (17:40.48)
Yeah, sure. Very good question. So the beginning part is what I call the roadmap for the book. And that is the planning part. And I do a lot of journaling work with my clients. So a lot of reflective questions, they will get little prompts they have to go away and write to to see what emerges. Because I do think that we know it. We know deep down what we want to say, but we haven't actually been able to articulate that.
So there's a lot in the beginning stages of really digging deep into what this idea is and trying to just be able to encapsulate it neatly so that you can talk about it confidently, so that you know what it is, who it's for, and what your argument or point is, and what the promise is to the reader. So there's a lot of work where we seem to be kind of going around those questions in different ways, but the idea is to get to the themes, get to that clarity of idea and feel that excitement of, yes, this is doable and this is what I have to say.
Gill Moakes (18:29.495)
Mmm.
Christine Shehy (18:38.318)
So that's the initial part. Then we will plan the book chapter by chapter. We'll look at what goes into a chapter so that they have a really structured process to follow. Some clients will deviate from that as they write and free flow and that's fine. Others will need that real structure to be able to to a framework as such. Actually, that's another word that's an important word. Often my clients have developed a way of working
something that they're teaching or a way of coaching over many years, but it may not be articulated as a framework as such or learning framework. They haven't quite pulled all the pieces out or figured out how it's all together. It's just something that they do. And often they might feel like it's quite intuitive and tailored to each client, but we will often do some work around figuring out what that framework looks like because that can be really useful for the structure of the book. What comes first? What comes next? What comes so on?
Gill Moakes (19:14.638)
Mm -hmm.
Christine Shehy (19:35.97)
finding those repeat processes and themes is a really important part of the work. So we do all that. And then it's about getting your writing. So usually there's a few chapters that we work on together, which is usually rough and ready and about you finding your way into the voice of the book. So we're not focusing on perfection. We're focusing on words on the page, trying out different ways, different ways of telling a story, different ways of getting into the book itself and just
Gill Moakes (19:36.279)
Yeah.
Christine Shehy (20:04.962)
finding a way that you feel comfortable and this is the voice that I want to write in. My natural way of writing this book. So that's the beginning block and then after that you have a pretty good plan of what you're going to do. As I say, you may adjust it, that's fine. It can be dynamic and flexible, but it's got the book in a nutshell. At that point, you would decide what your publishing journey is likely to be. So if you are wanting to pitch to a
Gill Moakes (20:09.644)
Mm.
Christine Shehy (20:34.87)
an agent and a publisher. At that point, you would look to develop a book proposal because for nonfiction, that is not a memoir. So nonfiction, that's a teaching book or a philosophy or self -help book, that kind of a thing. You can pitch based on the idea and a comprehensive proposal and some sample chapters. So you might decide that that's what you want to do. That's a big piece of work in itself. So I can guide you through that process. Or you might decide
actually I want to write the book first, or I want to, I know that I want to self publish, or I know that I want to go with a hybrid publisher, so where you and the publisher both chip into the costs. And then in that case, you would go down the process of writing the manuscript. sort of a, we have a little sort of pick a path at that point. And then it's up to you how much support you want during the writing. Some clients want me to read their chapters every fortnight.
Gill Moakes (21:14.734)
Mm.
Gill Moakes (21:24.396)
Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Shehy (21:32.158)
and keep them on task and get it done by a certain date. Other clients will say, I'm really happy just to work on this now and I'll come back when I need extra support. run community writing sessions on Zoom. So we just get together and have a little catch up and then we work on our projects in silence, which is amazing. And I highly recommend. Yeah.
Gill Moakes (21:51.722)
It is because I do the same with Right Club. It's just, it's so good, isn't it? People get so much done. I know.
Christine Shehy (21:59.478)
It's crazy. It is crazy. It's the silliest little simple thing, but blocking that time in your calendar, having other people in the Zoom room with you just keeps you actually dedicating that time to it. And if you're busy, you're running business, you need to, I think you can have all the best intentions. I'll write so many times a week or write every day, there's many words, but actually having a block of time that is non -negotiable really just means that you are moving forward.
You do keep touching the work regularly, so you keep that energy and that aliveness in the work, keep your connection to the work. It's a really powerful thing. So I love that. That's my Friday mornings. I do my writing. Yeah. So that's the process. then, yeah.
Gill Moakes (22:28.205)
Mm.
Gill Moakes (22:34.232)
Mm.
Gill Moakes (22:41.344)
love love
Gill Moakes (22:47.064)
And that, so just that beginning part that you were talking about, that's the part that I feel that's what's been missing for me for sure, is that I just don't think I, I don't think I made firm decisions, or firm enough decisions around the book of what the book was in the concept phase. And so then I would just have this kind of
Christine Shehy (22:52.216)
Mm.
Christine Shehy (23:08.238)
Mm.
Gill Moakes (23:16.67)
vague cloud representing the idea for the book. And then I would just go away and write, I would write, I have so much already written, but none of it feels cohesive and nothing feels like it's coming together in the form of a book. It just feels very disjointed, probably lots of things that would be great for sub slack actually. So I could probably still use a lot of what I've already written, but
Christine Shehy (23:36.494)
Mm.
Gill Moakes (23:46.036)
I'm the sort of person where I work so much better if I have a proper plan in place. I just don't think I'm one of those people that can go off and, and completely write intuitively without a plan. Not if I want an actual book at the end of it that delivers on its promise to the reader, like you said. So I think that's
That's what's really interesting for me is that I can see from what you said that that's what's been missing for me is to have this, the concept and a decision made on it. And almost that, that accountability of someone else saying, okay, are we happy? Is that the decision? Yes, that's the decision. Okay, let's move on to the next part. That's what's been missing. So I've just been tumbling around with the same ideas kind of, and then ripping them up and starting again and not actually moving forward with anything.
Christine Shehy (24:40.514)
Yeah. And unless you have that clear point of view, say you are, as you mentioned before, writing a book about how to launch, grow, and scale your business. First of all, that's three very different parts of the journey. So the person launching the business is not ready to scale. So there's a very different reader for those books and much to say on each of those topics, a book in themselves potentially. But without that clear point of view, you don't know what to keep in and out.
Gill Moakes (24:52.01)
Absolutely.
Gill Moakes (24:56.92)
Yup.
Christine Shehy (25:07.982)
And anytime that you see another book that's about launch, growing and scaling a business, you'll think, it's already done that. that's Marie Folio. She's already done that. She's got 50 million followers or, whatever. And you start to discount your own ideas. And it's because you didn't have that clear perspective on what your book offers to the conversation. So what do you bring to this conversation about launching, growing and scaling business that someone else is not bringing or that isn't being said? What isn't being said is a great question to journal on.
Gill Moakes (25:08.546)
Mmm.
Christine Shehy (25:36.94)
because even for social media posts.
Gill Moakes (25:37.112)
What isn't being said? Yeah, what isn't being said is absolutely genius, journal prompt. Is that something that you come up against a lot with clients, this comparison -itis, you know, this kind of, or this fear that everything's already been said? So what can I add? You know?
Christine Shehy (25:45.87)
Mm.
Christine Shehy (25:59.187)
yes, almost everybody comes up with that one at some point. What's the point? Someone else has already done it. You know, and that can, and that's one reason I mentioned keeping to keeping on touching the work regularly, because those fears can come up in the middle of a project as well. If you get a lot, if you've been away and then you got busy and then something happened with your dog or your child or your neighbor, and you didn't get back to the book for a while. And then you open it up and you think, it's rubbish.
Gill Moakes (26:04.877)
Mmm.
Christine Shehy (26:25.998)
and this book's already come out and I'm too late. That's not necessarily gonna happen to everybody, but something of that variety can come up when you're not making forward progress with the book. So committing to your topic, keeping on moving even just a little bit each week, each day if you can, but each week's fine as well, and then not setting a time period beyond which you won't go more than say 10 days without writing at least a couple of hundred words.
Gill Moakes (26:29.44)
Yep.
Christine Shehy (26:54.124)
And that just those sorts of boundaries can just help you keep that face and not let those very common, almost cliche fears stop you from writing your book.
Gill Moakes (26:54.146)
Bye.
Yeah. Yeah.
Gill Moakes (27:02.86)
Yeah, but very real, very real, because they do come up. How important is it? Right.
Christine Shehy (27:06.562)
Very real. And they come up for published authors as well. They come up for very famous authors. They worry about a second album syndrome. You know, we've all heard of that, that you've already been in success. How can you do it again? You know, it's very common. It's part of the creative act. And so just accepting that, letting them go, keep on touching the work. Even if it's rubbish today, it doesn't matter. Tomorrow you might have an amazing writing day.
Gill Moakes (27:16.146)
yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Gill Moakes (27:25.474)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Gill Moakes (27:34.104)
phrase keep touching the work. I feel like that is a really important one. I think that will stick in my head. Keep touching the work because I've experienced what you just said where you leave it for a while and when you come back, you like when you started working on it, you're full of passion for it and loved everything that you were putting down on the page and then you come back and it's like,
I don't feel the same about it now. And or this doesn't seem as good or, then instead of just thinking, okay, but it's okay for now because I'm not in an editing phase. I'm in a writing phase and it's okay to keep going with it. But instead it's like, no, it's no good. It's no good. I have to start again. and that's so frustrating.
Christine Shehy (28:22.53)
Yeah, yeah, and that can be really paralyzing and we can get into the situation where we're rewriting chapter one over and over and over again, and we're not actually moving forward at all. So, you know, near enough is good enough, move on, get the words on the page, know that the first draft isn't going to be perfect, it never is. So just move forward and then you can come back and you'll refine it again. It's all fine.
Gill Moakes (28:26.146)
Yeah.
Gill Moakes (28:32.898)
Mm -hmm.
Gill Moakes (28:45.622)
Absolutely. My writing mentor, guess, Beth Kempton, who I just adore, love her. But she's always taught around this spilling all of your ideas. So kind of get all of the ideas out. Don't think about shaping it. That comes next. So spilling and then shaping and then sharing. And it's a really lovely way of thinking about it because it lets you let go.
of needing to kind of self edit as you begin, it's just spill it all out. I guess it's like a bit like the artist's way, Julia Cameron's artist's way where it's about morning pages are just about getting, know, filling these pages with words. And I think there's something, definitely something to be said by that. And that's something I really struggled with in the beginning. I think I'm getting a bit better at that now.
Christine Shehy (29:20.726)
Mmm.
Gill Moakes (29:40.184)
But in the beginning, was like every word that hit the page had to be really considered. And is this the correct word for this sentence? That was very limiting. very slow.
Christine Shehy (29:49.678)
Yeah, and that's a very slow way, slow way to write a book. One technique I love, which I've only recently learned, but is working for me at the moment is James Scott Bell, I believe is the originator of this technique. And it's been dubbed, perhaps not by him, the Nifty 350, which is write 350 words. And I believe the original technique, but apologies to James if I get this wrong, but.
is to just first thing in the morning, straight out of bed, 350 words, just write it. And, and it's a really doable number. It doesn't take you that long. If you're fired up on your topic, I think I've done it in 12 minutes was when I was like, I don't know what I'm writing today, you know, and it's, it's done. And if you can keep if you pick a number like that, and it's manageable, if you don't have a lot of time, and you make sure that so many times a week or have whatever works.
Gill Moakes (30:28.876)
It is, yeah.
Gill Moakes (30:35.468)
Amazing.
Christine Shehy (30:46.03)
you do at least 350 words, you will make progress towards your book. And it's 350 words forward. You're not editing through the last ones. You just keep going. It can help to write the first sentence of the next bit or just start the paragraph or drop the idea for what comes next. So that when you come back, yeah, I'm writing about that walk on the beach. Great, 350 words. And there's a novelist in Australia, Sally Hepworth, and she used that, and maybe through her that I found that technique in fact, she writes,
Gill Moakes (30:50.114)
Mm -hmm.
Christine Shehy (31:14.414)
full -time as a novelist, but she does it in 350 word blocks. So she'll do the first one in morning, get the kids off to school, do another 350 words, go walk the dog, you know, another 350 words. And then, and then those little chunks, at end of the day, she's done quite a lot of work, but she's not sort of slogging at her desk for hours on end.
Gill Moakes (31:34.158)
Yeah, because however much you enjoy writing or even the process, think it's quite overwhelming to think of just having to sit morning till night writing. And it just, it's never going to work like that. You have to break it down somehow. I love the idea of Nifty 350. That's really clever. Yeah, that's really good. And you know what? It's a really nice number because I know from writing like 500 word blog posts that those aren't that hard. can...
Christine Shehy (31:53.048)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Gill Moakes (32:03.726)
I can turn out a 500 word blog post pretty easily. So a 350 commitment, that feels like very doable. Yeah.
Christine Shehy (32:13.314)
Yeah, you've done a thousand words in a week if you do it three times a week and then, over the course of the year, you write your book.
Gill Moakes (32:17.742)
Yeah. So that's a 30 ,000 word book written in a month if you did it every day.
Christine Shehy (32:24.303)
I can't quite do the maths in my three, no, hang on. don't know. Every three day, if you.
Gill Moakes (32:26.026)
No, that's absolutely not right. No, it's a thousand words a week. Yeah.
Christine Shehy (32:33.518)
If you did it, if you did it every day, you'd write a thousand words in three days. So it's 10 ,000 words in a month. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. First draft.
Gill Moakes (32:39.982)
So three months you could write a 30 ,000 word book. Ha! That's actually genius. See, that's how my brain works, is that I like breaking things down like that to be able to see that I'm making the progress. And again, that's what's been missing. I haven't been doing that.
Christine Shehy (32:51.916)
Mm.
Christine Shehy (32:58.19)
And sometimes you'll be on a roll and you'll just keep going and write lots more. But other times, if you've just done that 350 words and you know, you've, you've touched the work, you've made a little bit of progress and it's moving forward.
Gill Moakes (33:08.718)
touching the work. I just I love that. How important is it Christine, that we understand what we want the book to do for us? So I guess as a coach, this is a question that I've pondered before, you know, what is it? Why? I know why I want to write a book. I love the process of writing and I love the idea of
know what, this is the honest answer. I love the idea of being a published author. I want to be able to say to people I'm a published author. Right? I can't lie. That's a massive part of why I want to write the book. But I, I do also think that I expect my book to do things for me too, in terms of credibility and in terms of door opening and that kind of thing. Do you see a big
Christine Shehy (33:57.08)
Mm
Gill Moakes (34:04.14)
So I know I didn't give you time to answer that question, but I guess the real question is, do you see or come across a big variety of reasons behind experts writing books?
Christine Shehy (34:19.342)
Do I see a big variety? There are definitely some common reasons to why people want to write books and wanting to be an author is usually one of them. Not enough, as I say, but it is one of the things that's okay to go, actually, I want some recognition. want to hold my work in my hands because I've done all this work. I've come up with this program or this philosophy and it's sort of here. It's this amorphous thing and...
Gill Moakes (34:23.533)
Right?
Gill Moakes (34:33.622)
Yep, absolutely.
Yeah.
Christine Shehy (34:47.618)
I'm doing this great work with my clients, but I want it down on paper so it's something I can hold, can show my mom. You know, I can get it into the hands of other people. There is that, but it's often about making an impact as well. And that is where, like you say, the book can open doors. can send it to people before you're on, when you wanted to be on the podcast, or you wanted to speak at an event, you can sell it at an event. If you're doing a lot of speaking, it can be a wonderful add -on because people often...
Gill Moakes (34:54.242)
That's it! I think there is that, isn't there? Yeah.
Gill Moakes (35:01.288)
Mmm.
Gill Moakes (35:11.715)
Mm
Christine Shehy (35:16.466)
They'll leave your talk fired up and want to know more. And then sometimes it's actually that there are people that they that can't afford to work with them, but they want to be able to help them. So if they have a book, it's a low cost product that they can sell. Look, you know, my packages are this, this will get you started. And when you're ready, come back and work with me if you want to. But you'll get a result from this if you read my book. So that can be a really nice add on as well.
Gill Moakes (35:29.794)
Yep.
Gill Moakes (35:36.01)
Mmm.
Gill Moakes (35:39.416)
Mm
Christine Shehy (35:44.91)
But often it's just this, yeah, it's a really nice thing to have.
Gill Moakes (35:45.528)
feels important. Actually, that feels quite important that, you know, I sometimes think that I sometimes think, I know that I'm not the cheapest coach out there. And I'm absolutely unapologetic about that. I'm good with that. And I know that I deliver value to my clients. So I'm absolutely fine with that. But there is sometimes a part of me that is like, I have so many things I would love to be able to teach.
that are really quick wins as well. These are really things that are going to change the way you feel about your business. And I think the book, it fills that space for me to being able to teach more to more people, regardless of whether they can work with me privately or not, that doesn't, you know, that it's another way. I think also it's
I think about the legacy as well when you've written a book of kind of, you know, after you've gone and having your words read by future generations, I think that feels amazing. Particularly if you've got something important to say that you want to live on after you have passed, you know, like that feels really important to be able to capture your thoughts like that.
Christine Shehy (36:45.74)
Yes. Yeah.
Christine Shehy (37:09.378)
Yeah. And I have had that from some clients where they've been working on a story that they want to tell. I do, I am certified to coach memoir and I do occasionally do memoir. Mostly my clients are combining some kind of philosophy or teaching and story together. So that's where the memoir element comes in. But sometimes there's something that they've been through that's so transformative that they really want to record that for future generations, which is pretty special.
Gill Moakes (37:17.42)
Mmm.
Gill Moakes (37:34.928)
Mmm... Mmm...
Christine Shehy (37:36.37)
But yeah, you're right. It's a wonderful window into what you were thinking, what you were doing, how your was my kids wouldn't know a lot about my work, but if it's in a book, I think it to understand what mom was doing all those years. So yeah, that is that is special. And it's just something about being able to hold your work in your hands. You know, here it is. This is my offering. It's an offering to your readers.
Gill Moakes (37:45.003)
No! Exactly!
Yeah.
Gill Moakes (37:56.578)
absolutely. It's an offering. Yeah, it's an offering. And I think now that I've finally decided on what the book is, it feels like it's the it's the obvious offering for me to put out there. Rewilding your business is a concept that I believe in so wholeheartedly. It's something that I do.
on an ongoing basis with my own business. For me, it's a bit, it's connected a little bit with like decluttering. You know how decluttering your house can bring so much calmness to your mind and you know, it's amazing. I think it's the same when it comes to rewilding your business. It's like, goodness, when you cut away a lot of the noise and stuff that you're doing and actually decide what to really focus on.
It's absolutely transformational. The amount of time you claw back, the amount of focus you then have is bloody amazing. And I believe in that so much. Whereas I think for a while I was trying to come up with a book topic that would sell.
Christine Shehy (39:18.146)
Mm.
Gill Moakes (39:18.902)
And I think this is something that I'm realizing now. And I don't really like admitting that, if I'm honest, but I do think there was a bit of an element of, I'd come up with an idea and dismiss it if I thought it wouldn't be commercially viable.
Christine Shehy (39:38.413)
I mean, it makes sense. Yeah.
Gill Moakes (39:38.624)
And now, yeah, it makes sense, right? It does make sense, but I kind of, suppose I don't like that necessarily about myself. I would much rather be able to see, I felt called to write this incredible thing because it's my life's work. you know, but I don't think I did feel like that. I wanted to be a published author and I wanted to hold my own book in my own hands, but I also wanted it to be like an amazing success.
Christine Shehy (39:46.691)
Mm.
Gill Moakes (40:04.578)
But now I can see that, yeah, so what does that mean? so I think a success would be.
Christine Shehy (40:04.984)
What does that mean?
Gill Moakes (40:15.336)
wanting, I would, the success of the book would be based on how it was received. So the success wouldn't have been so much about the joy of completing the book and loving the work that I'd created the offering, as you said, I think for me, success, as I was thinking about it then, would have been about the external validation of
Christine Shehy (40:23.214)
Alright.
Gill Moakes (40:46.475)
telling me how good it was and buying it.
And I think, yes, I would still love those things. But I can now see that those aren't the reason that I'm going to write the book. Those will be a very lovely side effect. If that happens. But much more now, it's much more now about no, this is my very own philosophy, my very own
Christine Shehy (41:05.422)
Fabulous. Yeah. Yeah.
Gill Moakes (41:21.282)
I'm not saying it's unique to the point that no one else has considered this before about simplifying your business. I'm pretty damn sure they have, but this, I feel really compelled to get this out there. And I just don't know if I was coming at it from that angle before.
Christine Shehy (41:37.218)
That's fascinating, isn't it? See, that's a lot of the stuff I think that we have around a book and what makes a book a success. you know, we're schooled from early on to think that if we get a publishing deal, if it makes a bestseller list, if it sells this many copies, if it, you know, and there's so much of that is just outside your control. It's just, can't actually, you can't know what's going to happen with any of that. You can only do your best. And,
Gill Moakes (41:39.029)
Mmm.
Gill Moakes (41:56.013)
Yeah.
Gill Moakes (41:59.487)
absolutely
Christine Shehy (42:07.086)
And I think that does put lot of constraints on you when you're trying to meet those parameters and try and pick what's going to be the hot thing. I think I like to be quite realistic with clients at the beginning. I feel it's really important to talk about how difficult publishing is as a game in terms of pitching your book and getting a book deal. And I think it's really important.
Gill Moakes (42:18.371)
Yeah.
Christine Shehy (42:32.67)
to have that commercial lens on it actually, and to understand that when a publisher invests in your book, if they buy your book and want to publish your book, they're essentially investing in a product that they need to be able to sell. So they are looking at it commercially, like how what's the audience, how many copies can we move, and so on. And so that means there's only a really small number of books that will fit that criteria that they will want to invest in. But the really neat thing now is that
Gill Moakes (42:35.619)
Mm.
Gill Moakes (42:52.514)
Mmm.
Gill Moakes (42:57.602)
Right.
Christine Shehy (43:00.856)
there are other options open to us. A lot of entrepreneurs have a big audience already, a big following, or enough of a following to publish their books directly, to have more control of the process, to still create a really professional quality product. And I think that's the key. We used to talk about self -publishing as Vanishing Publishing and all that. That's moot now, I think.
Gill Moakes (43:10.274)
Hmm? Hmm?
Christine Shehy (43:29.304)
You know, if you do it well and you get support, you can produce a great book and get it out to an audience and have a lot of control over the process. And it can fill needs in your business or in your personal work that doesn't require going down the conventional publishing route, if that's not the right avenue for you. So there's a bit of a mindset shift to it.
Gill Moakes (43:30.1)
yes, I agree with you.
Gill Moakes (43:40.834)
Mm.
Gill Moakes (43:52.182)
my research, it is a mindset shift. And I've researched a lot the difference, you know, traditional publishing and self publishing for myself, but also for clients. And I think it used to be that self publishing was kind of, well, if you can't get a book deal, then then perhaps you could self publish. But I'm seeing more and more now that there are really are pros and cons for both. And for some people,
maybe traditional publishing would be absolutely right for them. But for other people, think self publishing should be their first and chosen option. Because, you know, there are pros of that route too. So yeah, it's definitely not the poor, poor relation anymore, is it?
Christine Shehy (44:39.456)
No, and some people have a very clear purpose that they want their book to fulfill and that will involve supporting a program that they're running or a speaking engagement that they're doing or that they know where the book fits in the ecosystem of their business. And so that control is really important. And they want to be able to publish it themselves and get it out in their timeframe and so on. In fact, I would say the majority of my clients would fall into that, into that category that the book hits, they know where it's going to fit and what they want it to do.
Gill Moakes (44:49.208)
Mm.
Gill Moakes (44:54.813)
Mm. Mm.
Christine Shehy (45:08.244)
So yeah, and I think the book, as you said earlier, is the means to open the doors to other things in your business. So we need to look at it as how does it expand the people that I'm reaching? How does it get my ideas out there? How is it opening doors? How am I able to use the publicity around this book to actually achieve other goals? So we look at it.
Gill Moakes (45:35.298)
Yeah. Yeah.
Christine Shehy (45:36.426)
in the wide in terms of what role it fills for you. And when you can see it that way, then it's not about whether it's a commercial idea that's going to sell so many copies. It's about actually how it fits with the way you want to show up the legacy that you're building, the body of work that you're building, and how it's going to serve that reader at the end of the day. And so you can become less focused on those commercial metrics that are sort of the things we've been told over the years, right? That's what we hear about Sunday Times Best Seller list, you know.
Gill Moakes (46:02.702)
Yes.
Christine Shehy (46:05.974)
but it isn't necessarily what you need the book to do.
Gill Moakes (46:06.455)
Right.
Gill Moakes (46:10.75)
Absolutely. I love that. And that, that for me makes it very clear. Just as you're saying it, I'm that I was kind of applying what you were saying to myself. was like, yeah, my goodness. It's very clear now what I want my book to do and why I'm writing it. So that's so helpful. I think, I think I can really see now.
how there's such a need for what you do, Christine. Honestly, just having someone who understands the process and who is, because one thing about you that I've noticed is that you get really, you get super interested and engaged in other people's topics and ideas. You said yourself earlier, that's the part of your job that you love. And I think that really comes across. So I can't wait to...
Christine Shehy (46:41.88)
Come on.
Christine Shehy (47:05.74)
Okay.
Gill Moakes (47:09.41)
work with you more moving forward. I'm very excited.
Christine Shehy (47:12.546)
Me too. And it's funny, I think I said to you when we first met that I feel like people will appear in my inbox and we'll have a conversation. And it's almost like the topics show up and I'm like, damn it, now I need to look at that. So someone showed up that was, I've got a fitness coach at the moment that was about getting back out there and ramping up your exercise program. And when she said, was like, damn it, I know that's what I need to look at.
Gill Moakes (47:29.336)
Yeah.
Christine Shehy (47:40.076)
You know, but it's like I learned so much. So you exactly, you were talking about rewilding your business and like, yeah, that would be great. You know, so people, the things that arrive on my desk are almost always in perfect timing, which is fantastic.
Gill Moakes (47:40.324)
Bye!
Gill Moakes (47:47.059)
Yes!
Gill Moakes (47:52.884)
love that I love that I think that's amazing and I love that you notice that as well I think it happens all the time I think a lot of people don't notice but yeah I love being open to that. Christy where? Sorry go ahead. Where?
Christine Shehy (48:03.63)
It's there, it's there. And it's funny, I'm, no, go ahead. no, I was just going to say I'm working now with a life coach who was my client and has written a book. And then she'll say something, I'm like, yeah, I've read that, all right. I don't need to it again. But reading the book, reading the book, even though I worked on her book and read it with her. And then I was like, okay, I'm going to work with you. And that's also a pretty common experience that one of my clients, the business coach, and four years after her book came out, she'll still say, someone's just come to me because they read my book.
Gill Moakes (48:15.565)
You
Gill Moakes (48:19.31)
Brilliant.
Christine Shehy (48:33.11)
And now the time is right, which is fantastic.
Gill Moakes (48:37.102)
think that's a really important point to make as well, actually, because I think, you know, there's a couple of reasons for me that writing the book now is very important. One of them is that I really want to step further into thought leadership around the things I talk about. So it's a really important bit. But also,
I am noticing a lot now that there is a getting a bigger and bigger lag between people first coming into our world and knowing about us and people working to making that decision to invest in work with us. think that's perfectly normal and perfectly okay. And having a book out there is another brilliant way for people to get to know you and your style over a longer period. might read the book, like you say, and then they're coming when the time is right and ready for them.
And one of the things in, in rewild your business, certainly in the retreat is let's focus less on urgency and trying to convince someone to work with us and persuade someone to work with us. Just let's let go of all of that and allow people to make the right decision for them at the right time for them. And a book is a lovely gentle way of helping people do that. It's like, take this.
look at it in your own time. If this resonates with you, it could be that we would work beautifully together. And if it doesn't, maybe we wouldn't. And that's okay too. And letting go of that urgency, that need, that kind of desperation to enroll as quickly as possible, I think is so important.
Christine Shehy (50:19.756)
love that. for coaches out there, it will never replace what you do entirely. Sometimes people really worry about giving away the farm in the book. And there's a balance there in terms of what you share and you don't share that's individual to each author. But I think coaches, people work with a coach for so many reasons that go beyond just the knowledge. And so
Gill Moakes (50:29.88)
Yes, yep.
Gill Moakes (50:41.965)
Yes.
Christine Shehy (50:42.476)
You can read it all, but sometimes you just really need that person to take you through it, even if you've read it. But as you say, it warms the client to your philosophy. And if it resonates with them, then they're going to keep following you. And then if the time is right, then they're ready. So it is a beautiful thing.
Gill Moakes (50:46.484)
Absolutely right. Yeah.
Gill Moakes (50:55.874)
Yeah, then they're ready. Exactly. Christine, I've loved talking to you today. Thank you so much, because I really know this is going to be so helpful for so many people listening who have this ambition within their business to write a book. I just know they do. And so I think this would be super helpful. Where can people reach you if they'd like to find out more about what you do and
kind of clients you work with and who you help and how you help them.
Christine Shehy (51:28.76)
Yeah, thank you. My website is bookcoach .co .nz and you can find me on Instagram. I think my handle is Christine Sheehy Writes and on Substack. My publication is called Right to the Heart of Your Business. But you can find me probably by my name.
Gill Moakes (51:42.743)
Yay!
Gill Moakes (51:48.207)
That's a genius name. Right to the heart of your business is a genius name for your substrate.
Christine Shehy (51:52.383)
Thank you. Actually, actually, it's called Right to the Heart of Your Work. It might be called Right to the Heart of Your Work. That's my old tagline I just gave you. Right to the Heart of Your Work, because we're going beyond the business itself, it's the work. That's very outdated of me.
Gill Moakes (51:56.468)
HAHAHA
Well either, either of them are super!
Gill Moakes (52:06.72)
Right, Lena, Lena, we're gonna go back and we're gonna go back and do that again, Lena, so that we don't confuse everyone. That's so brilliant. So if you go back to your Instagram handle, because then we go from there. Yeah.
Christine Shehy (52:14.584)
Thank you.
That was years ago. Okay.
Christine Shehy (52:24.982)
My Instagram candle is at Christine Sheehy underscore book coach and my sub stack publication is called Right to the Heart of Your Work or you can find me under my name, which is Christine Sheehy S -H -E -E -H -Y. Thank you so much for having me Jill.
Gill Moakes (52:39.4)
Wonderful. Thank you. my goodness. My pleasure. I will put links in the show notes to all of the things we've talked about today and particularly to where you can find Christine. And if you do, if you are someone like me who has an ambition, who has just this burning desire to be an author, leave a legacy, have an impact, all of those things, then I would highly recommend you reach out.
Christine because I'm very excited about working with her and I already can't wait to recommend you to some of the other wonderful women in my life. So thank you so much and let's talk again very soon.
Christine Shehy (53:26.798)
Thank you. The book is a happening thing everyone. So rewild your business coming soon.
Gill Moakes (53:29.558)
Yeah! Yeah, see, accountability straight away. I like it. Yeah. Thanks, Christine. Bye for now, everyone. Bye.
Christine Shehy (53:37.045)
Great. Thanks Jill. Bye.
