Gill Moakes (00:01.251)
Hey Caitlin, hi, thank you so much for joining me today.
Kaitlin (00:05.548)
Hi Jill, I am so excited to be here and do this podcast. So thanks for having me.
Gill Moakes (00:11.715)
goodness, my pleasure. it this has felt like it's been a long time coming because I had to rearrange and and it was such a shame because I so looking forward to it before. And now I feel like I've had to wait so long. So I've been really chomping at the bit for this one. So thank you for for coming on. And this is a really, for me really topical subject, actually. But I think this is
One of those episodes that is going to strike a chord with so many of my listeners, because this is a topic that we all as women entrepreneurs, as female founders of businesses, it's something that I know is going to really light people up. when I found out, when I was introduced to you actually,
and found out a bit about your business. I was absolutely intrigued around what you do. So on that note, can I ask you to just explain a little bit to the audience what your business is and how you serve the people you serve?
Kaitlin (01:21.966)
Certainly. My business name is A Tour of Her Own. I'm currently set up as an LLC. And I'm based in Washington, DC, where I primarily lead women's history tours with a small team of tour guides. And part of that work has branched into other areas as well. So I'm also the author of a book.
titled 111 Places in Women's History that You Must Not Miss in D.C. So I like to say that I work at the intersection of tourism, history, and feminism.
Gill Moakes (01:59.949)
I love that and what that is such a great description. The intersection of tourism. fuck it. I've forgotten one. Sorry, Lena. What was it? Tourism? You said it so good.
Kaitlin (02:08.59)
Tourism. damn, I forgot to... I work at the intersection of tourism, history, and feminism.
Gill Moakes (02:21.433)
Got it. Got it. I love that. The intersection of tourism. Fucking hell, I've done it again. Sorry, Lena. I'm back now. I've got it. Right. This time I've got it. What's wrong with me? It's my menopause brain. It's my menopause brain. yeah, we'll have a bloopers. Right. I love the intersection of tourism, history and feminism. Right? That, I mean.
Kaitlin (02:30.958)
Yeah.
Kaitlin (02:34.732)
This is the best. We should have an outtake.
Gill Moakes (02:50.411)
So many questions have just come up straight away, which was, but first of all, I have to know how did this evolve? So how did you start down this path? Which of those things came first?
Kaitlin (03:03.022)
Ooh, that is such a tough question. I mean, I want to say, right, we're always in a journey. So I can look back to things that come from my childhood in sports, for instance, where I both traveled, was around girls and women a lot. I can look towards more of a college experience. I can look towards my early career. So I wouldn't say that there is one particular thing, but that's exactly why I phrase
the work that I do in the way that I did. Because especially as entrepreneurs and small business owners, we all know that we have a lot of titles and lot of roles. And so for me, it's, you know, working at the intersections of all of those things and bringing my different experiences together. And that's why I don't just say, I'm a tour guide or, I'm an author or I'm a small business owner. I'm all of those things.
working for a cause, working for social change.
Gill Moakes (04:03.331)
Mmm.
So that involvement in social change, I just feel like what you do is very unique. And I think there is something so powerful in the way you position what you do.
And I'm really interested in who are the kind of, who are the people that you really want to educate with what you do? Because I know that you believe in kind of education beyond the classroom, right? I think that is something that I've read about you. And I really love that. I love this education piece. But coming at it from such a unique angle, I mean, I'm intrigued as to
Kaitlin (04:41.773)
Mm-hmm.
Gill Moakes (04:54.607)
Who are your clients and who are the people that you want to be influenced by that social change, by the kind of unique standpoint that you work from at that intersection?
Kaitlin (05:10.338)
Yeah, that is a question I ask myself all the time. It's certainly an answer that has changed as my business has grown. Originally when I started six years ago, I thought that I was a tourism business and I very much operate as a tour operator, but I very much feel like I align in different industries more so.
And those industries are ones that you had sort of mentioned. Education is a big piece of the work that we do. So a lot of my clients are universities, are student groups. On the other hand, I am sort of in a DEI professional leadership category as well. So I work with a lot of offices, a lot of professionals.
Gill Moakes (05:37.455)
Mm.
Kaitlin (06:06.222)
And so who my audience is, it's a little bit complicated and I'd say my branding and marketing sort of changed based on who I'm looking at for certain product, but it's ideally people that are curious, people who also want to explore beyond four walls, whether that's a classroom, a museum or an office. It's people who are interested in fresh and different perspectives.
Gill Moakes (06:17.444)
Mm.
Gill Moakes (06:26.584)
Yeah.
Kaitlin (06:34.69)
It's people who are mindful and intentional, and that shows up everywhere. So on one side of my business, it's grassroots. We're going to meet people who have no introduction into social justice or women's history, and we're going to provide that for them. And on another hand, we are working with people very engaged who understand that they want to go deeper. And so we're doing different kinds of work with them.
And that is both a challenge, but I do think it's an opportunity. And each time I'm in front of a different audience, I am learning from them as much as I'm teaching them. that's entrepreneurship is continuously learning, right?
Gill Moakes (07:15.053)
Right. Yeah.
Gill Moakes (07:20.875)
Yeah, absolutely. I guess, like your role in the company must have evolved as well since since you began it. And I get the impression that perhaps now you are more in the visionary of the business and perhaps, you know, you're working maybe in a slightly different way than the like the tour guides that you employ are working. Would that be fair?
Kaitlin (07:44.014)
I'd say my rule definitely evolved. I think I did things in reverse and looking back, I don't know if that was best or if I overextended myself, but it is what it is and I accept it. And ultimately it got me to this place where I am today. I'd say early on, I actually started with a lot of services, a lot of products and a big team. And I immediately started delegating. Yeah, I immediately started delegating and the whole goal upfront,
Gill Moakes (08:06.937)
Did you? That's interesting.
Kaitlin (08:13.826)
was I didn't really deal with any of the education, any of the tour building, any of the giving the tours. I was learning how to run a business. I was learning what it meant to file paperwork, get an accountant, get insurance, and that is hard. It's especially hard when you're also the one providing the services. So in that regard, my team who was leading the tours really allowed me the space to build the business. I think over time,
Gill Moakes (08:20.751)
Mm.
Mmm.
Kaitlin (08:43.458)
that did start to switch a little bit because I do find myself out in the field more leading tours and building the programs and working with the people. But I think that has primarily become requested because people know who I am more. People want not just the history that my tour guides give, but they might want that leadership angle. They might want that small business intersection. And then, you know, after I wrote my book,
Gill Moakes (09:08.035)
Mm.
Kaitlin (09:11.81)
people said, we want a tour, but we want it with you because we want it to be around the book, me or my co-author. So.
Gill Moakes (09:16.803)
The power of writing a book.
Kaitlin (09:21.162)
The power of writing a book. I am so grateful for my book. It's right here in front of me. I also experienced a lot of struggle in that process, which maybe is another conversation. I would actually use this platform to say to anyone listening, don't jump to writing a book. might not turn out exactly how you think in your head, but at the same time, it is another tool that if you know how to utilize it.
Gill Moakes (09:22.882)
Woof.
Gill Moakes (09:33.711)
Mmm.
Kaitlin (09:50.894)
can be powerful and productive.
Gill Moakes (09:53.507)
That's really interesting because I know, so I know that in my audience, there are a lot of entrepreneurs who have that on their bucket list to quite often two top goals, do a Ted talk and write a book. What were the unexpected challenges then that came up for you when you were writing the book, if you don't mind sharing?
Kaitlin (10:21.002)
certainly unexpected challenges. There were also challenges that I had anticipated, but had good faith that it might turn out otherwise. And in some cases it did and in some cases it didn't. I could write a book about writing a book, but ultimately, if I'm talking about this from an entrepreneurship perspective, right? I'm talking about this from a founder's perspective. And actually most other authors that I've talked about who also own businesses
Gill Moakes (10:33.017)
Yeah.
Gill Moakes (10:36.353)
Haha
That's the next book.
Kaitlin (10:50.392)
have explained it exactly in these terms. They have said, and I agree, writing a book is like starting another business. And if you have never thought about it like that, it will surprise you because you have a whole new set of branding, you have a whole new set of marketing, you have a whole new set of social media tools and website tools, and it doesn't always align with what you're doing. Sometimes it does, even if it does, it's still not an easy
Gill Moakes (10:59.461)
Gill Moakes (11:04.591)
Mm.
Gill Moakes (11:09.622)
Bye.
Kaitlin (11:20.648)
fusion of the work. So I would say...
Gill Moakes (11:22.031)
Mmm.
Kaitlin (11:28.728)
think about it as starting a new business. There's a lot of responsibility that comes. And also from a entrepreneurship perspective, writing a book is a very collaborative experience. In my case, I had a co-author. I understand some people write solo. I also had a photographer. I also had an editor. I also had a publisher, both of those working overseas. So when you're a solopreneur,
usually doing things at an extremely fast pace, how you want, when you want, it's a challenge to work within a team unit again. And that shouldn't really discourage you from doing it, but you have to let go of some control. You have to compromise on things that you might not feel are in alignment with you personally, because you're working as a group unit. And that was something that I needed maybe as a reality check, but I did struggle for sure. And then...
Gill Moakes (12:05.316)
Right.
Kaitlin (12:24.622)
Once your book is published, you're constantly considering where is my energy going to? Am I promoting a tour with this post? Am I promoting a book with this post? And I came to find that sometimes those are different audiences. Believe it or not, people who like to be home reading a book and are introverts are not the same people that are going on group tours with other extroverts. So it was a little bit complex with my work.
Gill Moakes (12:39.097)
Mm.
Gill Moakes (12:48.471)
Right? That makes sense. Yeah. I think there's another layer as well. And you alluded to this with like, is like starting another business and almost like another brand, another, you know, set of marketing and profiles and all of that kind of thing. And I think, you know, depends what kind of entrepreneur you are, doesn't it? Because if you are a personal brand business, so like for me, my business at the moment, up until now has been
Kaitlin (12:54.862)
you
Gill Moakes (13:18.435)
dual moaks, dualmoaks.com, dualmoaks the coach. And I've recently launched the coaching business academy, which is like a separate thing. But up until now, I feel like if I'd have written a book with as my personal brand, there wouldn't have been too much difference. It would have been quite easy because I was, it's still very similar.
But I think for you, where you went straight in from the vet from the one on building a business brand. So your personal brand, Caitlin Calgera. Did I just say that right? Calgera, Calgera. Cal, Calgera, did I? Bollocks, could have left that in Lena. Calgera. Yeah. I'm not going to say it again now. I like I've, I've like, tried to-
Kaitlin (13:56.64)
Yes, you nailed it! Calo-gera, yes!
I'm sorry.
Gill Moakes (14:10.872)
Tried too hard. Okay, I'm back with you, Lena. Yeah, I think so for you, your personal brand wasn't as dominant as your business brand at the beginning. So I can see how then a book written as you, Caitlin, was very, very different thing. And I hear you about that kind of division in promotion as well. So what am I promoting now? Is it my personal brand? Is it my book? it the...
the business? Is it a tour? Is it a conference? You know, what is it? What am I promoting? And I think that's a challenge that we all face. And it's why I think that, you know, the more simple we keep our business models, better, because it's an eternal struggle to decide what we're doing at any one time, isn't it? So you wrote the book. Right, right. So you wrote the book. What did the
What did writing the book and becoming a published author, what did it change for you?
Gill Moakes (15:18.253)
if anything.
Kaitlin (15:18.298)
It... yeah. It certainly gives me a sense of credibility in the public, which I respect and I appreciate. I'm not entirely convinced, however, that a published author should have any more credibility than a small business owner who is doing a million things and just balancing it and making sure
Gill Moakes (15:27.321)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Gill Moakes (15:42.639)
Mm-hmm.
Kaitlin (15:47.882)
nothing fails and maybe nothing's taking off, but you're just through have a lot of, you know, juggling a lot of things at once. So I love the credibility, but I think in today's day and age, we should still be questioning that because there are a lot of ways to learn. I also think that there are even influencers who are teaching us constantly and just because they're not published doesn't mean they should shouldn't be credible. Right. But I think so. Yeah. On a professional level,
Gill Moakes (16:13.762)
Absolutely.
Kaitlin (16:18.102)
it did open me up to new audiences because I went through a publisher. So the publisher was able to get the book in local stores online and in spaces that got eyes on the cover at least. And now people find me through the book. They say, I know your book. I didn't know your business. So in that sense, it was very rewarding. And I think ultimately though, and what I would encourage
Gill Moakes (16:29.091)
Mm.
Gill Moakes (16:35.268)
Mm-hmm.
Kaitlin (16:45.61)
a founder thinking about writing a book to do is perhaps write it early on in your business. Because I was able to use this experience to really define my messaging, to contemplate the words and language that I wanted to use, and to then echo that further in my career.
Gill Moakes (17:04.749)
Mmm.
Kaitlin (17:10.914)
Whereas in the beginning of a business, you're really thinking about that stuff and it's gonna evolve and it's hard. But by writing the book, I feel like I can always go back to it now and I have a basis for where I started and now I can really pull from that anytime I want. It's a ton of content that is helpful and I think that that was a benefit of writing the book for me as an entrepreneur.
Gill Moakes (17:38.593)
I love that. I love that because actually I feel like most people get the opposite advice, you know, is don't write your book too soon because everything will change, everything will evolve. But actually, I think capturing that essence of why you started the business and why you're passionate about the thing you're passionate about. I love this idea of do that early on and use that as your benchmark to come back to.
when everything does start getting more complicated and more evolved and sometimes straying away from what we originally were drawn to share about. I really like that.
Kaitlin (18:20.854)
Yeah, that's exactly right. And I should say that my book is very surface level. It's 111 short stories. So I was establishing myself as an expert who knows a little bit about a lot. And that's true. You come on a tour, I know a little bit about a lot. And yes, I know a lot about these places in more depth, but I wasn't ready back then to start writing on it, perhaps. So
Gill Moakes (18:49.571)
Right, right. And it possibly, it probably possibly wasn't what people wanted to have it more in depth. It could be that you just met them exactly where they're at, you know, so I love that. I'm glad you mentioned the stories side of thing, because impacting social change, social justice, by elevating women's stories is really
Kaitlin (18:49.856)
it was in alignment with the world.
Kaitlin (19:00.782)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Gill Moakes (19:20.431)
what you're about, what your business is about. And it's kind of a linchpin, I guess, of what you do is around the storytelling. Can you tell me a little bit about how that came about? Because there are a lot of tour guides who tell the story surface level of a place. And I suppose this comes back really to that intersection of the bringing in the feminism.
as well into this. And I think that I read that one of the things that you had become very aware of was that lack of, hold on, sorry, Lena, I'm just going to say this. yeah. One of the things that you've become very aware of was the lack of women's representation in public spaces. Is there anything that comes to your mind, you know,
Kaitlin (20:14.829)
Mm-hmm.
Gill Moakes (20:18.765)
when you think about that and you go back perhaps in your memory of when you first started out the business, is there any particular place that that brings to mind for you and any sort of story that you could share with us that sums that up?
Kaitlin (20:34.936)
Sure, I think it's rooted in my activism. I moved to DC 10 years ago and we are an extremely engaged city with people who are constantly unpacking what it means to be good citizens. And this is a place, a city where I really could step into my feminism. I could step into my social justice work later on in my
personal and professional life, I would discover my identity within the LGBTQ community. So through this place and being exposed to these ideas and breaking them down, inevitably it kind of merged with my work. When I became a tour guide in the year 2015, moving into 2016,
there was a heightened climate here in DC and across the country. And I had to ask myself if I was contributing or pulling from a more equal and fair narrative, more equal and fair society. And when I asked myself that question, I felt like...
Gill Moakes (21:34.307)
Yeah.
Kaitlin (21:54.614)
the kind of work that we as tour guides were doing and myself included was I was contributing to a story that people were left out of. so by asking questions, I got to the answers. Part to give you a couple of examples, there are few statues and places and memorials for women in the DC area. And so,
you would think, well, if there's only, let's say, five, we should probably hit all five, right? Because there's not that many. But on many of my itineraries or many of my tours with colleagues, we would just bypass women's history. We would spend like three hours, for instance, in Arlington National Cemetery talking about mostly men who served in the military. And then at the end of that visit, basically
Gill Moakes (22:45.071)
Mm.
Kaitlin (22:49.458)
our bosses, our colleagues, or our clients would say, we're hungry, let's go to lunch. And we wouldn't have time to go and find that one women's memorial that's there. So it just felt hypocritical to me. It just felt like there were gaps and that was happening in other places as well. And so, yeah, we need to not only look at the places that exist in front of us, but what are the stories about the people in places that don't have.
Gill Moakes (22:59.362)
Right.
Kaitlin (23:17.518)
access to those places anymore because they've been removed. They've had policies legislated against them and they no longer have opportunity there. And when you find those stories, you can tell the broader history of a place beyond what you're just seeing with your two eyes in front of you.
Gill Moakes (23:22.511)
Mm.
Gill Moakes (23:38.159)
do you, what do you see as the ultimate goal for you with the business in terms of the social justice aspect of it? Because as you were saying that, I was just like, there's so much to unpack here, isn't there around and sometimes I think as women, we get kind of disillusioned and tired of like, there's so much to do, there's so much to do. And that
I love that ring tone.
Kaitlin (24:09.208)
I'm so sorry. Let me turn. I thought my it is on do not deserve. I'm sorry.
Gill Moakes (24:15.535)
That's okay. That's why we have the wonderful Lena. I don't know why I always feel I have to lean in to talk to her. She can hear me through the mic.
Kaitlin (24:20.473)
Hahaha
Yes, you do that.
Gill Moakes (24:27.043)
the time. What was I saying? Yes, I just saying that, sorry, Lina, stitch this together somehow, please. We get disillusioned. And sometimes it feels like it's there is so much there's so much to be changed. And I'm really intrigued by this look backwards to move forwards kind of concept.
Kaitlin (24:31.361)
I you.
Gill Moakes (24:57.167)
Because I feel like that's really what you're doing with the work you do is that actually, you know, by elevating and reframing the narrative, by elevating these women's stories from the past, we're setting a new trajectory for the future. So I suppose, there is a question in here somewhere, and that is around...
The mission, I guess. What is the ultimate goal for you in terms of igniting this social change, this social justice?
Kaitlin (25:36.622)
Jill, this is not the answer you want, but I don't have a goal. I have never had a goal for Toho. I much like-
Gill Moakes (25:43.341)
Let's invite one now.
Ahhhh
Kaitlin (25:48.43)
I think much like social justice, it's always changing, it's always evolving. And I think you had used this phrase earlier that I would echo, it's meeting people where they're at and it's meeting the moment. So I think that on one end of this work, there's actually a lot of privilege because
Gill Moakes (25:54.767)
Mm-hmm.
Gill Moakes (26:02.671)
Mm-hmm.
Kaitlin (26:15.874)
I'm in Washington, D.C. There are folks here with access to resources and we do have some opportunities to share women's history. There are days when I am working with just really, you know, really...
I don't know the word to use here, maybe just like engaged Americans. And then there are the very next day I'll turn around and I'm working with international guests who don't have the same access, the same opportunity. And so I want to, with Toho, continue to feed these different communities, make this experience exclusive, make it a situation where we can honor women, we can heighten women.
I also want this experience that can reach international guests, young people, folks who don't have access and make this something that's just normalized, that's just regular. And so it is a little bit of meeting everyone where they're at. And I will just say this to bring it back to entrepreneurship. The most important person that you have to meet
Gill Moakes (27:21.261)
Yeah.
Kaitlin (27:35.874)
where they're at is yourself. And so if there are times when I am overwhelmed with this work, I just don't do it. I just don't do it because it's not helping me.
Gill Moakes (27:47.727)
Please, is the quote of the episode. I am feeling overwhelmed by this work, I just don't do it. And God, I love, love, love that level of honesty. And I wish more people could take that attitude.
think you said something earlier on, and I think this explains it a bit more as well, in terms of, there doesn't have to be this grand goal of making some specific huge change with what you're doing. You said something about when, you know, landing in DC and kind of like just exploring what it means to be a great citizen. Right?
Kaitlin (28:30.412)
Is it?
Gill Moakes (28:32.269)
And think that that's what you're alluding to here. It's that can we just, can we just make being a great, normal, decent human kind of the norm? So I actually really love that.
Kaitlin (28:41.88)
Mm-hmm. That's exactly right.
And that kind of talks to the work in certain times when things are heightened or they're a little extreme. My job is to be an interpreter and a mediator. So I'm here to help bring rationale, bring and remind people of what it means to participate in human rights. When things are not heightened and we aren't taking action as a
Gill Moakes (28:59.225)
Yeah.
Kaitlin (29:12.756)
city, country, world, or people. My job then is to help ignite and inspire people. So just creating this constant balance. And I think that's important. I also do want to say though to people listening who are entrepreneurs and small business owners, it is important to have maybe a path or journey or direction. I'm not going to say that I don't have any goals or anything, but you know,
Gill Moakes (29:39.823)
Sure, of course.
Kaitlin (29:42.046)
Yeah, it's just not set in stone and it's not, I have to get there, right? I think, you know, one of my goals, just like every entrepreneur is to listen to what you want, whether that's in the very moment where you're just like, yes, I want to stay up late and work right now, or no, I don't have it in me. Or for that month being like, you know what, it's getting
Gill Moakes (29:47.343)
Mm.
Kaitlin (30:08.258)
dark earlier and I just don't have it or hey we're in summer and I love being outdoors let me go on vacation and do a little work or if it's for a period of your life where you want to invest in your relationships or maybe you're feeling really connected to your clients like you have to I think trust especially us as women our intuition and what you feel and if that aligns with your ability to earn your ability to
make yourself more credible, then lean into it, right? So I don't know if those are goals, but I think there's direction that we can listen to and we can serve ourselves and our people and the world, you know, by making social change, but it just starts with you and really leaning into what you're feeling and what you need to fuel yourself so that you don't burn out.
Gill Moakes (31:02.649)
you, first of all, I just could not agree more. In fact, I think one of the worst things that ever happened in business was the person who invented smart goals. And we all got battered around the head with this need to create smart goals, specific, measurable, don't even remember what the rest of them are. And it's like, says who? Says who? What if my goal is to feel a certain way?
then I own that, then that's my goal. And I don't need to tick anyone else's box and have it specific and measurable and time bound. So yeah, I love that. Do you think you're quite a natural entrepreneur?
Kaitlin (31:32.984)
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Kaitlin (31:52.394)
Yes, I do. I do. I think it's natural to me in many ways, but I have never had like a nine to five standard job. I've never had a salaried job. I have always worked weeks. Never, never. Yeah. Exactly. So it's just like rebellious. It's a rebellious trait of mine or skill set of mine.
Gill Moakes (31:54.526)
Mm. Mm.
Gill Moakes (32:08.685)
Haven't you? I love it. You rebel. Love it.
Kaitlin (32:21.1)
since I started working. Every so often, I actually dream about more stable job and what it would be like.
Gill Moakes (32:28.537)
Yeah
That's a myth though, because they're not actually more stable. We're the only safe ones. The people who have figured out how to make money for themselves are the only safe ones.
Kaitlin (32:35.008)
Yeah, I know.
Kaitlin (32:40.782)
That is true. That is true. But, you know, also like over here in the States, you know, we struggle for things like health insurance. We have incredibly expensive education and student loans. Not to say that this doesn't help happen in other parts of the world as well, but those are struggles that make it hard to be an entrepreneur in the United States, right? Especially for
Gill Moakes (32:54.069)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kaitlin (33:09.132)
For women, I don't have children, but I know that, you know, daycare costs, for instance, or the cost of caring for a parent is hard. And I could see how someone would lean into a more secure position where you have access to healthcare or resources that support you. Fortunately, not to say that I don't struggle with any of those things, but I am in a position of privilege to be able to do this work.
And yeah, I think it just comes from my spirit of entrepreneurship as early as, you know, working in restaurants as a waitress to being a coach for sports. None of these are jobs that are, you know, have a clock in and clock out time. You're serving the people. It's a customer service job period. Entrepreneurship with customers. Yeah.
Gill Moakes (34:00.953)
So interesting. So one of my absolute business besties, Rebecca Gunter, she always says that her time spent as a server, as a waitress, what do you call it? Waitress waiting? I don't know, what do you call it? Yeah, think so. Server, yeah. We say waitress over here. But she will always say that her time doing that was the
Kaitlin (34:18.41)
waitress is an appropriate term. think people say server now or yeah, it's all all good.
Gill Moakes (34:30.125)
best training ground for entrepreneurship that you can have. Because it's like you say, it's completely customer service driven. The better you are at it, the more money you earn. You know, you really understand about over delivering and about, you know, finding out who your best customers are and, and really playing to your strengths.
So I thought that, think that's so interesting that you also have that in your background too. Yeah.
Kaitlin (35:01.26)
Yeah, it's absolutely true. And it teaches you that time and money are like not the same thing. So when you're a server, you might go to your job and spend eight hours there and walk away with nothing here in the United States, especially because we have such a tip culture. And so when I learned that, yes.
Gill Moakes (35:08.623)
Mm-hmm.
Gill Moakes (35:21.131)
Yeah, it's very different over here. Yeah, so for anyone listening in the UK, who, you know, feels, is surprised by that, it's very different in the States to here, you know, we're quite stingy with our tips over here, we tend to only tip if we've received really good service. Whereas, actually, in the States, there's a lot more expectation that
that salary is made up by tips. So the base salary is very low for servers, right?
Kaitlin (35:53.198)
That's exactly right. And so yeah, it teaches you that, okay, you go to a shift, you might spend eight hours at that shift, but if no clients come in, or you have to share tips with someone else or whatever the factors are, you might not be walking away with eight hours worth of income. And I just take that knowledge and apply it to entrepreneurship because I'm gonna bet that there are people out there that are
Gill Moakes (36:12.548)
life.
Kaitlin (36:21.638)
so feel so guilty that you didn't spend enough time on your business. But time is just like a construct. Like you can spend two super hard focused hours of your day or your week and it could be just as productive as an eight hour day because it's your business and you know what you need. And so I just think we have to think about time and money and what the value is of each. And that is really
Gill Moakes (36:39.211)
Absolutely.
Kaitlin (36:49.706)
my entrepreneurship status. Like, what is this serving me? Time, money, expertise, like, what am I getting out of this? Right? But they're not always, they don't always go together like we're taught.
Gill Moakes (36:56.729)
Mm-hmm.
Gill Moakes (37:00.559)
Yeah, completely agree. In fact, quite often they're the opposite. I could say I just I've just been doing this morning my planning for 2025. And so I always start that with a reflection. So reflecting back over 2024. And it was so interesting. I invested a ton of time this year into a project that I really fell out of love with. And
Kaitlin (37:14.254)
Okay.
Gill Moakes (37:29.855)
I fell in love with a new project, which is the coaching business academy that I'm launching. And literally from having the idea to sending out the email and inviting 10 people to sign up as beta testers was like 24 hours. And it really brought it home to me that, you know, what you, what you said just said is exactly right. We're entrepreneurs and we know what we need. And we know when we, when we get it right.
Kaitlin (37:47.191)
Okay.
Gill Moakes (37:59.979)
It isn't about time, it's about focus and it's about direction and it's about really leaning into what feels right.
Kaitlin (38:11.534)
That's exactly right. And I heard you use the word project. And this is really an idea that I have leaned into as an entrepreneur. I think it shows up for me on two sides. One, I'm working on projects. And that allows me to focus my energy on certain projects from start to end or just like abandon it if it doesn't make sense.
Gill Moakes (38:20.91)
Yes.
Gill Moakes (38:36.825)
Yeah.
Kaitlin (38:38.126)
And on the flip side of that, which I would encourage people to think if you're looking to hire someone, and I'll say I don't have any full-time employees, I have independent contractors and freelancers. Yeah, we can hire people based on a project. It can be a flat rate with deliverables. And at the end of that, if that takes someone 30 hours or three hours,
Gill Moakes (38:50.295)
Yeah, same. Yeah, me too.
Kaitlin (39:07.476)
I don't care, just want someone to get the work done and we can be on the same page. And I think if we also look to hire people like this, and we also look to sell services like this to our clients, we're no longer beholden to our time. We're only, you know, sort of handcuffed to our productivity and that can look many ways and that's a...
more, I say handcuffed, but maybe it's more commitment or disciplined. So I love the idea of projects. I think also when you start thinking project-based, you can collaborate in projects, you can use projects as a form of partnership, and they can have a start time and an end time, and it could be an easy success. That was good. Moving on to the next thing, and you learned from it.
Gill Moakes (40:02.991)
Absolutely, you're right. know, not every single thing in your business is an ongoing, repeatable month on month task or process and shouldn't be, actually. I think that that's when business gets stale. It's when, you know, there's very little innovation when we look at it like that. Projects keep us innovative, don't they? Because I love when I treat something like a project and it comes to an end straight away, I'm like,
Kaitlin (40:15.107)
Yes.
Gill Moakes (40:30.185)
white space. What's next? I love that. I absolutely love that. Interesting.
Kaitlin (40:32.546)
Yes! Yes!
Yes, it's both you feel fulfilled from what you just did and you to your point, it's like a blank canvas and you can just think about what's next. And we as women primarily deserve to feel like we are accomplished because we are. But historically, as soon as you accomplish one thing, you're expected to go and accomplish another thing and another thing. And this is we all know this feeling. It's the feeling of we're not enough.
Gill Moakes (40:59.491)
Yes.
Kaitlin (41:04.754)
But we also all know that we are enough. It's just taking a second to say, I'm done with that. I did a good job. And how much rest do I need? And what's the next project? And so, yeah, I think we deserve that, Jill. And I'm so happy that you said that. This blank canvas of what's next is so innovative and creative. we're artists. We deserve to be able to think and create like that.
Gill Moakes (41:31.161)
We deserve it. We absolutely deserve it. You're so right. you know, it's time we claimed it. I think, you know, it's happening. It's happening. are. And I think this is one of the things that I just do love about what you do is, and I said it before, this looking back at stories and elevating the female stories so that we change that trajectory a little bit about how we see the future because...
Kaitlin (41:39.66)
Yes.
Gill Moakes (41:58.979)
You know, if the stories have been told truthfully throughout history, our trajectory as women would look very different to the way it looks right now, I think, I believe. I want to just reference something that I read, again, that you had said, which was, and the reason I want to reference this is that I'm just back from retreat myself, and this was something that came up for me.
Kaitlin (42:09.836)
Mm-hmm.
Gill Moakes (42:29.129)
So when I read this I was like my goodness this resonates so much and that was that you said we all belong but sometimes we have to search deeper for the people places and stories we connect with the most.
And that, that was like a big one that really hit me in all the fields because as entrepreneurs, particularly, I see a lot of people, of women feeling like they don't belong or don't have access to certain groups or clubs or use clubs loosely, but you know, certain, certain places or groups or communities. And I,
just love this reframe of actually we get to search deeply for the people, places and stories that we connect with the most. No one else gets to tell us where we belong or don't belong. So I suppose I wanted to highlight that and just thank you for those words that have hit me so much today. Yeah, because I love that.
Kaitlin (43:19.021)
Mm-hmm.
Kaitlin (43:23.118)
Mm-hmm.
Kaitlin (43:26.614)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Kaitlin (43:38.124)
Yeah, thank you. I think it's pretty universal. I work with a lot of kids who particularly in today's day and age are inundated with social media messages and throughout time, you know, are bullied or you're in a school setting. So it's one of my main messages for kids is that you belong. It might not be, unfortunately, in this middle school or your high school where
Gill Moakes (43:52.591)
Mm-hmm.
Kaitlin (44:06.936)
The kids just aren't like you, but later on you'll look back and think, yeah, that just wasn't the space for me. It's a hard lesson, but I think it's also true. I'm someone who has moved away from their hometown. It wasn't the place for me. I'm grateful for the lessons, but I have found many more of my people and I have found more of my authenticity by moving to DC and by also traveling. So I think that this applies
Gill Moakes (44:12.804)
Mm-hmm.
Kaitlin (44:37.034)
in many spaces. would say from a founder and an entrepreneur perspective, it could translate in that you might think your product or service is not good because it's not selling, but maybe you're just not in the right space or place. For instance, I thought I was a tourism business. It took me a while to realize I shouldn't be talking to other tourism businesses.
because they think they know what tourism looks like. I had to go talk to folks in education, I had to go talk to folks in activism, and they were more interested because tours were new to them. I'll also use this one example, because I wanted to bring it up before and I think it relates here. I understand the struggle to be perhaps cold calling or sending emails hoping that you will have access
or inclusion into a program or club, or I'm going to use an example in this case, a podcast. I know that there are people who send emails and you want to be on podcasts because you want to elevate your brand. You think that that person is in alignment with your goals or your mission. And I understand it's hard to be rejected, but my point about finding the people that help you belong,
will lead you to the clubs and places and spaces that you want to be in. That's how I landed here today. I did an email Jill and say, hey, I want to be on your podcast. But you know what? Like I went and had a happy hour with a woman who I love and adore and respect through work. And she was like, you know what? You need to meet Jill. And I said, for sure. And Jill said, for sure. Because we both know that
that person is someone in our life that we feel belonging connection and trust with. Yeah, that's it. That's it.
Gill Moakes (46:39.873)
giving me goosebumps. That's giving me goosebumps. You're so right. It's and it's it's all about relationships. The entire face of entrepreneurship is about relationships. I teach people all the time, relationships over algorithms every time. And you are so right. was when when we lean into
Kaitlin (46:46.67)
Just an owing.
Kaitlin (46:51.084)
Mm-hmm.
Gill Moakes (47:09.059)
building and nurturing deeper relationships and meaningful connections. The rest takes care of itself. As entrepreneurs, the opportunities take care of themselves. We didn't have to, I didn't have to write to you and say, please come on my podcast. You didn't have to write to me and say, please, can I be on your podcast? It was a very natural, well, yeah. If Angus is your friend, then you're definitely my friend.
Kaitlin (47:34.136)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Gill Moakes (47:38.371)
You know, and that's how it works, right?
Kaitlin (47:41.376)
It does. I'll also say, I think this applies as entrepreneurs with how we deal with our clients. So sometimes I get just, you know, random emails from someone who might be asking for a discount or donation or something for free. And we know as small business owners, that's hard to do sometimes. Not only is it hard to do because we can't afford to.
Gill Moakes (48:03.705)
Yeah.
Kaitlin (48:08.782)
do it and offer up resources. But sometimes it's difficult to commit because you don't actually know who's on the other end of it. You don't know if that charity or that cause is, okay, A, reputable and you're actually helping the people involved. But B, you also don't know that if you donate, let's say a book, a tour, a service, that it's gonna have any direct impact on your business, right?
Gill Moakes (48:16.751)
Mm.
Gill Moakes (48:25.303)
Right. Yeah.
Kaitlin (48:38.666)
So it will help you. Exactly. Exactly. That's a good point. So it just benefits you to have a trusted network of people. And I'm not talking about a best friend, although you do need work besties, you need entrepreneur besties. But people in your network who can, who you can serve and you know the value of that service.
Gill Moakes (48:39.404)
Or worse a detrimental effect if it's not legitimate. So yeah, totally.
Gill Moakes (48:56.055)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kaitlin (49:05.966)
You know that if you donate something for free, that it's gonna be appreciated. And even if you don't get business from it, you're doing something for a good cause and you know that the person on the other side understands that and they're gonna respect it. So I'm not saying it's like I don't want it to sound opportunistic or taking advantage of someone, but I think I wanna set it up in a way that you need the circle of trust because you also are gonna be able
Gill Moakes (49:19.809)
Mm. Yeah.
Kaitlin (49:35.862)
you're also going to need to ask for things. And as women, we struggle to ask for help or we struggle to ask for assistance. so developing that, yeah, developing that community gives you safety in being vulnerable, which we all need to be vulnerable and say what we don't know and what we need help with.
Gill Moakes (49:45.357)
We do.
Gill Moakes (49:58.185)
yeah, so well put. I thankfully I feel like I have women in my life that really holds that space for me. And I'm sure you're the same because, you know, but that hasn't happened by accident. It's it's really has been about searching deeply for them for the meaningful connections and making that happen, making that be true.
Kaitlin (50:15.07)
Mm-hmm.
Kaitlin (50:24.098)
Yeah, I'd also like to add to that. I certainly have women who have been in my best support circles. There are also many women who are not in my support circles because we don't align and agree on everything and that's okay. I would also love to say that a huge part of my community is men and folks who might not seemingly be the first ones to support women's history.
But they are. And especially in travel, if you're someone who works, for sure. Yeah. Now there's some nuance to it. Like, honestly, a lot of the gentlemen who support my work are generally older and they are tour guides and they have daughters and they have people, granddaughters even, who might be like my age or they just see it through that lens. There are certain men who are kind of like younger.
Gill Moakes (50:57.647)
That's good to hear.
Yeah!
Gill Moakes (51:20.749)
Yeah, yeah.
Kaitlin (51:23.95)
But that that's kind of the demographic but again, it's like your your product or service might not be selling because you think the other end is one demographic or one way but in my case, like I love to share with people that that like men are supportive of my work like I We have pride tours where people who don't identify in the community come out
Gill Moakes (51:45.199)
Mmm.
Kaitlin (51:51.732)
So part of social change and part of finding the people you want in your circle are finding the people that aren't as familiar or don't feel comfortable in those spaces and giving them an invitation.
Gill Moakes (52:05.607)
what a beautiful place to come to, giving them an invitation, right? Thank you, Caitlin. I've absolutely loved this conversation. I probably could go on for about another hour, but I know that that's probably a bit of an ask. For people who are listening to this and would love to find out a little bit more about you, possibly get the book.
Kaitlin (52:13.538)
Yeah.
Kaitlin (52:19.822)
Thanks, Jim.
Gill Moakes (52:35.548)
So the book is 111 places in women's history that you must not miss in Washington DC.
Kaitlin (52:43.15)
Correct.
Gill Moakes (52:43.683)
Yeah, yeah, I wasn't sure if the in Washington DC was on the end, but yeah. And I'm gonna say it again, Lena, hold on, let me say it again properly. 111 places in women's history that you must not miss in Washington DC. So check that out. I will put a link to that, certainly in the show notes, but where else can people find out more about you?
Kaitlin (53:06.574)
The best place to find us is through our website, www.atourofherown.com. And then from there is adding yourself to our email list. We send events. also, from time to time, we'll send a newsletter, which is basically like a roundup of things in current events or tourism or women's interests.
And beyond that, you can find a Toho or a tour of your own on social media like Instagram, and you can find me personally on LinkedIn. So wherever you are, go and check it out, but definitely sign up for our email list to stay in the loop.
Gill Moakes (53:52.441)
Perfect. Thank you. I will link to all those places again in the show notes. Caitlin, thank you so much for being my guest. It has been just such a pleasure talking to you today.
Kaitlin (53:57.782)
Excellent.
Kaitlin (54:04.908)
Jill, thank you so much for having me on your podcast and thank you to everyone who's listening and best of luck with your journeys and your businesses. You have a supporter here.
Gill Moakes (54:17.447)
Thank you. Bye for now, Kate.
